p.3 #1 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
An additional notch on a wheel hardly rises to the level of madness. Madness is a state of mind are reserved for acts of genocide, creation of WMD, religious war, etc. I'd describe a separation of traditional M mode from a semi-automatic version with autoISO (&EC) with terms such as clarity and convenience. And I'd gladly give up full auto mode (green square) to make more room on the dial. Digging through menus to disable/enable popular features is not clear, fast or convenient.
Why does it need it's own notch when it would just do the same thing as on M mode? M means you set shutter and aperture yourself it has nothing to do with the ability to whether you can change ISO or not. Av means you set the aperture and it sets shutter. TV means you set shutter and it sets aperture. ISO fixed means fixed. ISO Auto means it sets the ISO in combo with either M (your setting aperture and shutter), Tv (your setting shutter), AV (your setting aperture).
M means you manually set the shutter and aperture.
p.3 #2 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
An additional notch on a wheel hardly rises to the level of madness. Madness is a state of mind are reserved for acts of genocide, creation of WMD, religious war, etc. I'd describe a separation of traditional M mode from a semi-automatic version with autoISO (&EC) with terms such as clarity and convenience. And I'd gladly give up full auto mode (green square) to make more room on the dial. Digging through menus to disable/enable popular features is not clear, fast or convenient.
Madness, as mad as a brush, senseless folly, as crazy as a loon, as nutty as a fruitcake, you get the idea
Of course, whilst also disabling AF when selecting your M mode, other features such as auto bracketing, use of lenses without an aperture ring etc. should be disabled? Sorry as you can see I just can't take this seriously.
p.3 #3 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
M means you manually set the shutter and aperture.
Traditionally it also meant you set ISO and your choice of aperture/shutter was determined by lighting conditions balanced with intended DOF, subject movement, etc. I still do it with my Nikon FM2N and estimate exposure based on lighting conditions and film ISO. If ISO becomes a sliding value you can no longer estimate exposure settings based on conditions and must rely on the camera's meter and autoISO algorithms. M mode plus auto ISO is a semi-auto mode since the resulting exposure is a result of both user input and computer algorithms determining exposure.
p.3 #4 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
jj_glos wrote:
Madness, as mad as a brush, senseless folly, as crazy as a loon, as nutty as a fruitcake, you get the idea
Of course, whilst also disabling AF when selecting your M mode, other features such as auto bracketing, use of lenses without an aperture ring etc. should be disabled? Sorry as you can see I just can't take this seriously.
You're the only one here talking about disabling other features such as AF. Albeit I probably shoot with AF disabled 50% of the time I prefer to have a choice and not integral multiple features into a single mode. The modes are fine as is. I merely would like a different name for a new semi-auto mode. It would make both camera operation and forum chatter clearer. Having a semi-auto "M" mode is a great idea but it needs a new moniker so it is not confused with traditional M mode used on EOS cameras from 1986 to 2008...
p.3 #5 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
You're the only one here talking about disabling other features such as AF. Albeit I probably shoot with AF disabled 50% of the time I prefer to have a choice and not integral multiple features into a single mode. The modes are fine as is. I merely would like a different name for a new semi-auto mode. It would make both camera operation and forum chatter clearer. Having a semi-auto "M" mode is a great idea but it needs a new moniker so it is not confused with traditional M mode used on EOS cameras from 1986 to 2008...
Really? You're the one who started off with wanting to disable a current feature on cameras, that being auto ISO in M mode. That is limiting choice, by removing a feature from where it is easy to use and placing it its own area where it has to be specifically selected. There isn't anything confusing about having an auto setting as part of the ISO selection that is available in all modes. I just dont see it as difficult to understand or use. We'll never agree on this, apart from agreeing to disagree
Auto ISO wasn't really feasible on film cameras, so not particularly relevant. Not allowing auto ISO to be selectable in M just to keep one foot in the past doesn't make sense. I want to be able to makes changes to settings on the fly with my right hand with my eye still to the camera, fiddling with a wheel on the left side of the camera is a backwards step for me.
p.3 #6 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Interesting arguments going on here; many of them being too vitriolic for my tastes.
I do agree with the sentiment that shooting with Auto ISO enabled isn't really manual shooting, but I do think there are times when it is ueful, just as there are times when Av (aperture-value priority) or Tv (time-value priority) is useful.
Maybe this mode should be called Iv (ISO-value priority).
p.3 #8 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
An additional notch on a wheel hardly rises to the level of madness. Madness is a state of mind are reserved for acts of genocide, creation of WMD, religious war, etc. I'd describe a separation of traditional M mode from a semi-automatic version with autoISO (&EC) with terms such as clarity and convenience. And I'd gladly give up full auto mode (green square) to make more room on the dial. Digging through menus to disable/enable popular features is not clear, fast or convenient.
How does it need to be made more convenient?
In M mode you select your settings...one of them can be auto iso...
Adding more dials or modes adds ambiguity that isn't needed.
p.3 #9 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
dhphoto wrote:
Why all the hate and piss-taking? Is this Dpreview?
I can see a situation where needing a particular aperture and SS is important and the camera getting somewhere near the correct exposure by itself by using ISO would be useful, it doesn't mean I'd use it every day.
Ever shot a bird against a blue sky, or a over snow. The Auto ISO would result in 1-2 stop underexposed shots. You either use Tv or Av mode so you can use EC or you fix the exposure in PP. On a camera like the 7D this will result in much higher noise. There is NO reason for Canon not offering a CFn setting to alter the behaviour of Auto ISO in M mode and there is no reason they shouldn't allow for higher minimum shutter speed options when in Av mode such as 1/FL and 1/2*FL.
If you don't like the setting you can use the default which disables EC with Auto ISO in M mode; keeps every one happy.
p.3 #10 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Arguing over whether manual mode is really manual if Auto ISO is used is pointless IMO, it's not helping anyone shoot better photos or use their camera more efficiently. The fact is, Auto ISO exists in M mode and isn't going away, if anything it will be improved in the future. Personally, I would rather have the feature available even if I don't use it.
While I think Canon should add EC to Manual mode, there's a very simple setting that I never hear mentioned that allows you to hold the Set button and use the main dial to change ISO rather than having to press the ISO button. This is makes it so easy to change the ISO setting (including through the VF) that it makes M + EC unnecessary in most situations. Really, I can't think of many situations where setting EC (which takes just as much work to change as pressing Set+spinning the main dial) would be more effective than changing ISO on the fly with this method. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to have, but definitely not a game-changing feature.
There may be some limitation in the code behind M mode that interferes with EC + Auto ISO. I'm not defending Canon, but it doesn't make much sense for them to intentionally cripple a feature like EC. Enabling a seemingly simple feature like EC could involve a significant rewrite of code. Or maybe Canon just likes to spite their customers who buy $3000+ camera bodies.
p.3 #11 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Issues of your reading comprehension aside, my first and subsequent posts merely suggested that the semi-auto version of M should be named something more description and indicative of it's behavior:
M mode with auto ISO ain't manual mode anymore. It's just another programmed mode and needs a new name and notch on the dial like IP (Intelligent Program) or FPI (Fuzzy Logic ISO).
I'm 100% in support of expanded semi-auto M/whatever modes. I just want a meaningful name for it and don't want to swim through menus to enable/disable the semi-auto behavior.
jj_glos wrote:
Really? You're the one who started off with wanting to disable a current feature on cameras, that being auto ISO in M mode. That is limiting choice, by removing a feature from where it is easy to use and placing it its own area where it has to be specifically selected. There isn't anything confusing about having an auto setting as part of the ISO selection that is available in all modes. I just dont see it as difficult to understand or use. We'll never agree on this, apart from agreeing to disagree
Auto ISO wasn't really feasible on film cameras, so not particularly relevant. Not allowing auto ISO to be selectable in M just to keep one foot in the past doesn't make sense. I want to be able to makes changes to settings on the fly with my right hand with my eye still to the camera, fiddling with a wheel on the left side of the camera is a backwards step for me....Show more →
p.3 #12 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
Issues of your reading comprehension aside, my first and subsequent posts merely suggested that the semi-auto version of M should be named something more description and indicative of it's behavior:
I'm 100% in support of expanded semi-auto M/whatever modes. I just want a meaningful name for it and don't want to swim through menus to enable/disable the semi-auto behavior.
As manual mode sits now, how do you have to go through any menu to disable anything?
p.3 #13 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
I assumed we were debating the future naming and implementation of traditional M and semi-auto M modes. When I use M mode on my 5D2 I ignore the meter and manually set ISO as I've done for decades. That's fine for me. Just long as that default doesn't change on new models I'll be as happy as a bug in a rug.
p.3 #14 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
I assumed we were debating the future naming and implementation of traditional M and semi-auto M modes. When I use M mode on my 5D2 I ignore the meter and manually set ISO as I've done for decades. That's fine for me. Just long as that default doesn't change on new models I'll be as happy as a bug in a rug.
I'll admit, I didn't scour all of the posts. My apologies for that.
I concur. As it stands now, (even without EC in M mode) I have no problems. I will admit to using A-ISO in M mode, but I think you know some of the dungeons...I mean locations I shoot. I have no choice.
p.3 #15 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
Issues of your reading comprehension aside, my first and subsequent posts merely suggested that the semi-auto version of M should be named something more description and indicative of it's behavior:
I'm 100% in support of expanded semi-auto M/whatever modes. I just want a meaningful name for it and don't want to swim through menus to enable/disable the semi-auto behavior.
Oh I see exactly where you are coning from, I just disagree that Auto ISO has to be disabled for Manual mode. You want to disbale current functionality and create a new setting on the mode dial for it.... For me the M, TV and AV modes have always been for setting shutter and aperture, ISO has always been set separately, and in the past manually, regardless of the mode chosen. Now there is also an Auto ISO mode that is available, I have no problem with that being made available in M, TV and AV modes. This gives the maximum flexibility and choice for the end user. I don't want it on a separate setting on the mode dial, that just makes it more difficult to use.
You don't have to go through any menus to use or disable it, just don't roll the wheel to that setting when choosing ISO...
RobertLynn wrote:
As manual mode sits now, how do you have to go through any menu to disable anything?
You don't, although through the menus you can set the max\min values you wish to use in Auto ISO (on the 7D).
p.3 #16 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
I assumed we were debating the future naming and implementation of traditional M and semi-auto M modes. When I use M mode on my 5D2 I ignore the meter and manually set ISO as I've done for decades. That's fine for me. Just long as that default doesn't change on new models I'll be as happy as a bug in a rug.
Well this won't change, right at the bottom of the ISO scale (below 50 or 100 depending on model and settigns used) there is another setting for Auto ISO, you can use this or not. Nothing has changed with the way M mode works, you just have another option to use with it (which incidentally would work much nicer if you could choose EC when it is enabled!).
p.3 #17 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
RobertLynn wrote:
I'll admit, I didn't scour all of the posts. My apologies for that.
I concur. As it stands now, (even without EC in M mode) I have no problems. I will admit to using A-ISO in M mode, but I think you know some of the dungeons...I mean locations I shoot. I have no choice.
I must admit I can't keep up with which camera bodies you have now Do you still have a 7D? Don't you think just being able to set +1/3 or +2/3 EC would help with results? I like the 7D, but it makes me cry when it under-exposes
p.3 #18 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
jj_glos wrote:
I must admit I can't keep up with which camera bodies you have now Do you still have a 7D? Don't you think just being able to set +1/3 or +2/3 EC would help with results? I like the 7D, but it makes me cry when it under-exposes
No, I had to sell the 7D, when I bought the 5D3. Don't worry about keeping up. I bought my 1DIV's used, and got the best deal I could. I had a steady amount of work coming in, and work paid for them.
The 7D is remarkable for high ISO, unless it under exposes. Then it's horrible. I still like the camera, and I would say that it was probably the quickest camera I had to pay for itself.
No, I don't think setting + or - would help with the results. The reason for my choice of A-ISO is largely as a result of the changing conditions I'm in. Now, with the 5D3, things change a bit, btu I'll get to that in a minute. I shoot a lot of stuff in horribly lit environments (I also throw out a hell of a lot of photographs too because of the very difficult AF conditions). A lot of promoters don't spend the money or time on their lighting/production values. It's a shame too, because it is their product that suffers. As a result of this, I'll spend a lot of time shooting in varying conditions. This is no exaggeration, one promotion it is not uncommon for the lighting to be ISO 25600 f/2.8 1/500-800 (depending on the night) and then another spot in the same cage, ISO 3200 f/2.8 1/500-800. I've got a few where they are like ISO 1600 as well. In that case, dialing in exposure compensation wouldn't help, because the conditions are changing, and in one shot it may need + and in another it may need -.
The 1DIV cameras are able to have spot metering linked to the active AF point. This is convenient because I can keep the point on the person's body, and end up with "relatively" close exposure. So by setting the camera in M mode and picking my aperture and shutter values, and letting the camera choose the ISO with spot metering, I get the best possible chance of nailing the correct exposure in those environments. The 5D3 doesn't have this feature. It's spot metering is linked to the center AF point. I could just shoot it center point and crop, but I didn't spend the money I did (or rather am, I bought it at 18 months no interest) to use center point lol.
p.3 #19 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Yeah I like spot metering, I only have it on a 1Ds2 though so no chance of Auto ISO
As I use back button focus I still use the 7D with spot metering but lock the exposure using the centre point with the shutter button half pressed, then focus using my selected AF point and shoot. So a similar way of working but just more cumbersome. I always like to shoot with my 7D with at least +1/3 EC as mine tends to under expose a tad.
p.3 #20 · 5D3 has auto exposure in M, I never knew!
Gochugogi wrote:
I'm 100% in support of expanded semi-auto M/whatever modes. I just want a meaningful name for it and don't want to swim through menus to enable/disable the semi-auto behavior.
swim through menus?
You are in M mode and set ISO100-whatever it goes to and it's not in AutoISO. You roll the ISO to down to A and it's in auto-ISO.
Sorry as you can see I just can't take this seriously. 
