fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              end
  

Archive 2013 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?

  
 
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #1 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


I'd like Zeiss to publish a white paper on curvature of field, to set things to right, covering design trade-offs and much more.

I also would like them to publish CoF charts (one for say 5m or 10m, one for infinity) much as they do for distortion, as it is much more damaging than distortion on final IQ.

If you enter "Zeiss curvature of field' into Google, as I just did, this 28/2 ZE/F features in most of the top search results listed. One was photozone's test, and they indicate the CoF of this 28/2 curves away from the camera at wider apertures and settles down at f5.6...they are an Imatest crowd so this is at moderate focal distances. See the handy diagram half way down this page:

http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/586-zeisszf2820ff?start=1

'The Zeiss lens is surely not a lens to take images of flat objects - say a building or a ...test chart - at f/2 or f/2.8 because the corners will run out-of-focus. From a user perspective this is a blurred image portion - no more, no less.'

You can certainly get good imaging (object shaping) with CoF (parallel lines in MTF) but with a displaced focal plane, and it would be good to know exactly what to expect. I do feel that if you like Zeiss's 'take' on the 28mm focal length for one of their lenses you will most likely like them all. They seem to run to a formula.

I believe that the CoF concerns at infinity are exaggerated for many images, as corners are where it shows up in Distagons - two corners are of unfocused sky, the others are of subject matter generally at much closer distances, away from the focal plane even with a flat field plane.

Of course, feel free to turn the camera to 45 degrees to prove a point, but don't expect to see it show as a problem very often at all in the real world. What you need to do is use sensible apertures to let DoF cover the FP variation. Most of the above images simply have image data well distant from the focal plane, and even a 28mm can only give you so much DoF at f2 or f4.

Another good techique for landscape shooters is to focus short of infinity, this is sold best practice in any case, as you literally waste 'rear of focal plane' DoF if you shoot at infinity, and this is deeper in image depth than foreground DoF and would give beter corners for this lens for example - the trick is to know how short of infinity to set the lens at a given aperture - testing provides the answers.

The combination of sensible trade-offs in setting focal distance and judicious choice of aperture (diffraction only rears up from past f11) is a good recipe. And focus bracket to check your results. Best aperture for the ZeF 28/2 is f5.6 and f8 is also excellent so if it's deep DoF you want use them.



May 03, 2013 at 02:55 AM
AhamB
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #2 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


philip_pj wrote:
What you need to do is use sensible apertures to let DoF cover the FP variation. Most of the above images simply have image data well distant from the focal plane, and even a 28mm can only give you so much DoF at f2 or f4.


It's a bigger problem if you want to use shallow DOF like in Samuli's shots -- focus at medium distance but the background comes into focus at the corners. The worst lens I've seen so far in that respect is the Leica Summicron-R 35/2.



May 03, 2013 at 04:06 AM
Gunzorro
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #3 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


Philip -- While I know for many the COF is not a problem, it is for angular subjects or those mainly on one plane of focus, such as architecture and landscape architecture. Also usually associated with this design choice of aberration are others like vignetting. I find these objectionable qualities in an expensive lens.




May 03, 2013 at 04:36 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #4 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


I do agree it is a problem, but wanted to put out some suggestions on dealing with it for certain types of images. One reason for doing this is that CoF is a significant aberration in so many lenses (especially it seems in the 28-35mm range), that it seems to offer users this choice: either pass over what are otherwise wonderful optics, or get around the problem.

You may get the feeling makers are aiming for photographic uses in which it is not so big a defect that it is not worth trading off against things like excellent focus fade, or bokeh, or central strength - such as in the 35/2 Summicron-R.

If vignetting was as big an objection, despite the best efforts of photozone and others, Zeiss would long ago have been hoisted to the yardarm and left behind.

Many of us here add vignetting even to CZ images, I am one, it is always something to look at for me, whcih way to shift the slider in ACR; some images just look better, again depends on what one is trying to achieve. You have an image of a sweet child surrounded by bright materials, want to draw attention to the child = a candidate for a vignette.

Jim, it might have to be quite bad to cause deterioriation in architecture images, generally just a softening might be caused? Smaller apertures are the norm I'd have thought as a decent fix - happy to be wrong about this or any of it really.

Low DoF (all images have but one focal plane) 'landscape' seems to be a contradiction in terms, as all natural objects have depth, and rapid loss of clarity forewards and backwards must surely be seen as an exception, very unusual in fact.

I'm using landscape in the traditional sense (wide open and also intimate landscapes where detail and spatial relationships count) - not macro or close up highlighting of one element but with a focal distance of some magnitude.

Maybe CZ figure you can have the good effects of CoF at wider apertures and the other good things at f5.6-f11. With the 28/2 they would be right. Except for exceptions...But these need to be spelt out and kept in mind, hence they should include CoF in charts as done with the other aberrations like vignetting and distortion.



May 03, 2013 at 06:15 PM
wfrank
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #5 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


I like the look this lens gives. Good decision!


May 04, 2013 at 08:23 AM
carlitos
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #6 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


The following excerpt is from the preface of a Leica R-lens catalog published in 1984. This is an excellent catalog if you can find it. While it is not a Zeiss published white paper on curvature of field, it does make some important points about astigmatism, curvature of field, floating lens elements, and MTF curves. Leitz is basically justifying its lens design objectives, but the arguments they make are good to keep in mind when choosing lenses.


Basically, MTF measurements are always comparable with pictures of test charts. It is therefore not surprising that LEICA lenses usually show much better practical results than test photographs or MTF measurements would suggest. This at first glance paradoxical statement can be explained by the Leitz approach to correction:

Many lens manufacturers endeavor to keep astigmatism and curvature of field at a minimum. This must often be bought with the loss of maximum possible contrast, although it is the contrast performance of a lens that decides the visual impression of sharpness in the picture. Leitz are therefore less keen on a flat image field and minimum possible astigmatism, if this is at the expense of contrast performance. Particularly good examples of this are the 400 and 560mm TELYT-R f/6.8 follow-focus lenses. In both lenses, resolving power and colour correction are outstanding owing to the use of special glasses developed by Leitz. It is a well-known fact that achromats at full aperture suffer from slight curvature of field. As a result, sharpness in the marginal zones is shifted towards objects at a slightly shorter distance. In practice, this is usually considered a positive feature by photographers, because it normally affects the reproduction of the foreground. And a minor (apparent) gain in sharpness in the near foreground is almost always felt to be pleasant from a pictorial point of view. For plane objects, such as walls of houses, focusing should be a compromise, i.e. it should be a little outside the center of the picture, and the lens should accordingly be stopped down sufficiently if optimum sharpness is also required in the marginal portions. If this characteristic of the lenses is not allowed for during the test, the test result must be completely negative and would be in gross contradiction to the judgement of many sports photographers.

A similar discrepancy between test result and practical result can also occur in the testing of wide-angle lenses. Many of these have a floating element, which according to the claims of the publicity departments is often synonymous for outstanding optical performance in the near-focusing range. This may be, but is not necessarily the case. Here is the explanation.

As a rule, 35mm camera lenses reach their optimum optical performance when focused on infinity, which corresponds roughly to 50-100x the focal length of the lens. Within the nearer range, image quality decreases unavoidably. This falling-off of performance is usually unnoticeable in practice. But with some lenses, for example very wide-angle high-speed lenses, an appreciable worsening of image quality can occur. One of the methods of correction is changing the distance between individual elements or components within a lens. This floating element is moved backwards or forwards corresponding to its optical effect, and is coupled with the focusing mechanism of the lens. Investigations at Leitz have shown that a floating element clearly improves the image quality in the focusing plane. When test charts are photographed, lenses with a floating element will, therefore, always produce good results. Unfortunately, the good image quality is achieved only in the focusing plane. The space in front and behind, the depth of field, does not equally profit from it. When the foreground of the subject is focused on, more distant objects in the corners of the picture will appear unsharp, although according to the tables and scales, the depth of field would be deep enough to include these features in the zone of sharpness. This effect is enormously disturbing in pictorial photography, because it confines three-dimensional subjects by the exclusion of plane areas. Leitz, therefore, checks with every wide-angle lens for the LEICA whether or not a floating element offers advantages to photographic practice, whether it can be dispensed with, or if it makes sense to build a more complicated lens. Guided by these practical considerations, Leitz have not yet decided on the indiscriminate installation of floating elements in all wide-angle lenses – even if this has a negative effect on the measuring curves during testing.

We repeat: Leitz obviously endeavour to compute lenses that produce a completely flat field. Even so, the practical requirements are never neglected. And if a compromise has to be found, which is often necessary, it will only be in favour of applied, i.e. practical, photography.

It should always be borne in mind that in photographic practice, i.e. in the photography of subjects staggered in depth, there is not one, but an infinite number of subject planes. If you focus on a certain subject plane, there will others in front and behind it, which fully benefit from the higher contrast of the Leitz lenses, bought at the expense of some curvature of field. The result is an excellent picture.

For test chart pictures of MTF measurements, on the other hand, there is only one subject and, therefore, only one image plane. Here, curvature of field and astigmatism are disturbing features. Which means that when Leitz lenses are tested with the aid of test charts and MTF measurements, the effect on the result will be negative.

But the typical and, above all practical, lens characteristics are never appreciated in the published measurements, and are, therefore, neglected in the judgement of a lens. If you do not know this characteristic feature, you cannot help but get the wrong impression.




May 04, 2013 at 11:31 AM
evr1n
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #7 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


Few more examples.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8544/8707580363_68039823e7_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8119/8708702444_02148f1423_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8129/8707579751_b8ef9b2aa0_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8403/8708701948_a1d190a8ee_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8272/8707579117_b1e9eb6b4b_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8259/8707578983_727d37cac2_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8271/8708701190_f36f4f4585_o.jpg



May 04, 2013 at 04:25 PM
paulhofseth
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #8 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


Further to the Leitz quote referred above. The basic reasoning was well known when Zeiss\Yashica lauched their joint products in 1975.

A publicly available explanation of why a single measure in a focus point on the lens axis means little, is found in the technical writings, vol.5 issue 1 p.3-12 from Leitz. It i based on references from the late 1950es and 1960es (in German, Sonderdruck 92-100.203.)

In the brief exposition, this is illustrated by diagrams to substantiate their arguments against only using single MTF measurements. One diagram shows how a line will be "smeared out" in a different way in the plane of focus and at different distances from this plane for one of their products. It is clearly seen that the defocussing of the image is unsymmetric depending on distance in front or behind the focus plane.

The paper goes on to explain that the Leica 50mm 1,2 Noctilux, launched in the late 60es, had to use asperical surfaces so as to avoid more internal reflexes and stray light as compared with what the Summilux 1,4 had. It underlines that out of focus rendition , nuances in colur-rendition as well as flare must be included in any design decisions, not just resolution and contrast in the plane of focus.

p.



May 05, 2013 at 06:07 AM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #9 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


It's a very complex business, and being in the position of Carl Zeiss and Leitz, both in their market niches and as long standing industry leaders, there is enough interest in their processes and views, and how these may have changed over time. I hope they understand this interest.

It's always good to see behind the technical sheets, to get a glimpse of what lies behind what is done; thanks carlitos and paulhofseth, for these insights.



May 05, 2013 at 11:45 PM
bushwacker
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #10 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


ok so where does this Carl Zeiss 28/2 Classic excels at? seems that many people are not interested of getting 3d with this lens.


Sep 18, 2015 at 05:12 AM
zhangyue
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #11 · Distagon 28mm f2 C/Y or Distagon 28mm f2 ZE/ZF?


carlitos wrote:
The following excerpt is from the preface of a Leica R-lens catalog published in 1984. This is an excellent catalog if you can find it. While it is not a Zeiss published white paper on curvature of field, it does make some important points about astigmatism, curvature of field, floating lens elements, and MTF curves. Leitz is basically justifying its lens design objectives, but the arguments they make are good to keep in mind when choosing lenses.


Basically, MTF measurements are always comparable with pictures of test charts. It is therefore not surprising that LEICA lenses usually show much
...Show more
realize this is a old thread but lot of good info especially on this one. Leica design is balanced art in old age. Now is more or less the same cross brand by computer design.



Sep 18, 2015 at 11:24 AM
1       2       3       4              end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account