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Archive 2013 · Dynamic Range

  
 
artd
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p.9 #1 · Dynamic Range


Monito wrote:
I hope that even if the "push the button and we do the rest" philosophy or the "push the button and do the rest at home" philosophy may be appealing to one or two writers here, I hope that most of us are interested in doing as much pre-production, production, and post-production work to get the best quality results we are capable of with today's excellent Nikon and Canon and Pentax cameras.

Why do you hope that? Why be disparaging of the desire to have technology available which minimizes technical limitations and opens up more creative possibilites after the point of capture?

Absolutely I would take the "push the button and do the rest at home" option if it were available. What would prevent me from taking advantage of such a benefit, other than sentimentality for doing things the old way? Will it bruise my ego as a photographer that all the technical aspects I used to labor over have been simplified by technology? I prefer to think that instead I'd see this as an opportunity to more efficiently chase my creative visions.



Feb 22, 2013 at 02:20 PM
Access
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p.9 #2 · Dynamic Range


artd, sometimes I have this 'packing insecurity' too, where it's the beginning of the day, I'm trying to pack for the day and it's like 'better take this... I might need it... might need that too... etc. and before you know it, you have way too much stuff to lug around. Often at the end of the day, I find I never used two thirds of the stuff I packed anyways. So I'm really trying to put an end to that.

I have a OM-D, and that is actually somewhat better for lifting the shadows than the Canons but even so, this only helps sometimes. Sometimes it can make a 'ruined' photo into a 'decent' one, but I've never had it help to make a spectacular photo out of a decent one. Flat, uninteresting, bad, etc. lighting is still just that. 'Decent' photos aren't really my goal, I'd rather have 5-10 spectacular photos to show for a day than a hundred decent ones, the post argument has very rarely produced for me in practice.

I find the real difference or my experience with DR is not being able to 'save' a shot that would have otherwise been ruined, but more what you can do a shot or scene that would otherwise be impossible, or combining that would otherwise be very difficult to combine.



Feb 22, 2013 at 02:49 PM
artd
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p.9 #3 · Dynamic Range


Access wrote:
artd, sometimes I have this 'packing insecurity' too, where it's the beginning of the day, I'm trying to pack for the day and it's like 'better take this... I might need it... might need that too... etc. and before you know it, you have way too much stuff to lug around. Often at the end of the day, I find I never used two thirds of the stuff I packed anyways. So I'm really trying to put an end to that.

I have a OM-D, and that is actually somewhat better for lifting the shadows than the Canons but even so,
...Show more
If I’m shooting for myself I have no problems packing light. Or at least lighter than I used to

But on commercial shoots I have to pack for any contingency. When shooting interiors, that means packing strobes and all the relevant accoutrements (stands, triggers, power, etc). In these scenarios, I’m not needing to make good light into bad light. I don’t need the DR to lift the global exposure of the whole photo. I need fill light for dark spots in the scene that the ambient lighting isn’t reaching. Oftentimes I can handle this through exposure blending too, but it usually requires large exposure variations. Having the “minor” ability to just cleanly lift the shadows in single, well exposed raw file would be a very convenient simplification.



Feb 22, 2013 at 03:40 PM
Monito
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p.9 #4 · Dynamic Range


artd wrote:
Why do you hope that? Why be disparaging of the desire to have technology available which minimizes technical limitations and opens up more creative possibilites after the point of capture?


You mis-comprehend. I'm all for "technology which opens up more creative possibilities after point of capture". I use DPP, GIMP, Photoshop CS, Hugin, and Lightroom. I pointedly referred to the "excellent Canon and Nikon and Pentax cameras" that we have now. I'm not suggesting going backwards even if I do have a darkroom in half the laundry room.

artd wrote:
Absolutely I would take the "push the button and do the rest at home" option if it were available. What would prevent me from taking advantage of such a benefit, other than sentimentality for doing things the old way? Will it bruise my ego as a photographer that all the technical aspects I used to labor over have been simplified by technology? I prefer to think that instead I'd see this as an opportunity to more efficiently chase my creative visions.


Such technology is available now, compared to what you used 20 years ago (if you were shooting at that time). The reason you don't use it (to push the button and let the camera do everything and instagram do the rest) is that you have upped your game so that you still do a lot of thinking and work in the field to get better results than you did 20 years ago (if you were shooting then). (Your architectural photography is exellent; you certainly upped your game some time ago and kept doing so.)

When new technology comes along, you'll do the same thing. You'll work hard in planning and in the field, thinking about what you are doing as you do it and why, juggling multiple variables and optimizing them for best results. Just like you do now. And the technology will again allow you to get even better results.

My point is that "you push the button and we do the rest" or "shoot now think later" was never enough for photographers like us and never will be until I get so weak I get tired easily. Those who write that they want to push a button now and meter and focus and compose all later are deluding themselves as to the effectiveness of that strategy.



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:00 PM
splathrop
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p.9 #5 · Dynamic Range


Got a question for dynamic range buffs. You have a scene with dark shadows. You can shoot it with a high-dynamic-range camera, and lift the shadows later on your computer. Or you can use flash to lift the shadows as you make the exposure. Are the resulting finished images the same? Do they differ in any systematic way? Curious about opinions on this.


Feb 22, 2013 at 04:14 PM
Monito
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p.9 #6 · Dynamic Range


splathrop wrote:
You have a scene with dark shadows. You can shoot it with a high-dynamic-range camera, and lift the shadows later on your computer. Or you can use flash to lift the shadows as you make the exposure. Are the resulting finished images the same? Do they differ in any systematic way?


They don't look the same. Fill light casts its own shadows or semi-shadows. Another thing is colour casts. If the primary light on a piece of paper in a shadow is light reflected from a magenta wall, then ordinary fill light will not have a magenta-coloured profile and the paper will look whiter if not completely white, and will not look magenta.



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:18 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.9 #7 · Dynamic Range


splathrop wrote:
Got a question for dynamic range buffs. You have a scene with dark shadows. You can shoot it with a high-dynamic-range camera, and lift the shadows later on your computer. Or you can use flash to lift the shadows as you make the exposure. Are the resulting finished images the same? Do they differ in any systematic way? Curious about opinions on this.


Definitely different.

The shadow push shot will have the light that was in the scene. This may be good or poor quality light.

The flash shot will be lit by you so you can guarantee the quality of light. However light only travels a certain distance so if you have foreground and distant background, you're into complex lightning setups or a dark cave background.

There's no right or wrong. Just the right approach for that shoot.



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:18 PM
alexdi
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p.9 #8 · Dynamic Range


Monito wrote:
You mis-comprehend. I'm all for "technology which opens up more creative possibilities after point of capture". I use DPP, GIMP, Photoshop CS, Hugin, and Lightroom.


Except when it conflicts with your arbitrary definition for what qualifies for the manly art of photography. Plenty of folks would look down on you for relying on any of that. Not me.

Since you've been lacing your posts with an assumption of superiority, let me give you the counterpoint. The camera doesn't mean anything to me. I care about exactly one thing: the fleeting moment I'm trying to grab. Anything that gets in the way, anything at all, I'd toss immediately. If I could shoot at ISO 100K with the same quality as 100, I'd do it, because then I wouldn't have to care about shutter or aperture most of the time. If I could capture my eyeball stream, I'd choose that in a heartbeat.

If you like the feel of a finely crafted machine, of messing with dials or chemicals, of taking pride in knowledge that sets you apart, that's all fine. But that's not photography. Those are accouterments. Photography is getting the image by whatever means, and the easier the better. There's no partial credit; you either made the shot or you didn't. The process (which has been in flux forever) isn't relevant.

goosemang wrote:
then what, ye olde photographer? once the requirement of intricate knowledge of the physical medium is done away with, and there are no limits to capture, how will one explain that their photographs are *still* shit?


Thanks for that. Made me laugh.

Edited on Feb 22, 2013 at 04:55 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:53 PM
artd
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p.9 #9 · Dynamic Range


Monito wrote:
You mis-comprehend. I'm all for "technology which opens up more creative possibilities after point of capture". I use DPP, GIMP, Photoshop CS, Hugin, and Lightroom. I pointedly referred to the "excellent Canon and Nikon and Pentax cameras" that we have now. I'm not suggesting going backwards even if I do have a darkroom in half the laundry room.

Such technology is available now, compared to what you used 20 years ago (if you were shooting at that time). The reason you don't use it (to push the button and let the camera do everything and instagram do the rest) is that
...Show more
Ok, that's a good explanation to my miscomprehension.

But, I believe that one day (not soon, but one day) technology actually will reach the point where "shoot now think later" will be an effective method. (Personally, I am hoping for a pair of lenses I can implant in my eyes which will record everything I see throughout the course of the day and I can go back later to create individual still images from the footage). And my point was when that day comes, the technical stuff we used to need to know to be photographers will no longer apply. I have no doubt there will be software that will allow photographers to easily manipulate an image to any extent desired. At that point, you won't require technical skill to be a good photographer. But, you will still require the skill of imagining how to interpret the world you see around you. That's always been the core of good photography, and no extent of technical advances will ever diminish that.




Feb 22, 2013 at 04:55 PM
alexdi
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p.9 #10 · Dynamic Range


Damn, Art. I feel like you've got a chair set up in my brain.


Feb 22, 2013 at 04:56 PM
Access
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p.9 #11 · Dynamic Range


splathrop wrote:
Got a question for dynamic range buffs. You have a scene with dark shadows. You can shoot it with a high-dynamic-range camera, and lift the shadows later on your computer. Or you can use flash to lift the shadows as you make the exposure. Are the resulting finished images the same? Do they differ in any systematic way? Curious about opinions on this.

Not so much an 'opinion', more simple fact.

If all you do is 'lift' shadows, you are just moving everything up and rescaling. You can do things nonlinearly or move the tone curve around to try to minimize it, but a face that is in shadow is still going to be darker than the rest of the scene that wasn't in shadow. It's just going to be less dark than it was before. If you don't want this to happen, you have to do something like seperate the image into different layers, use tone mapping, selective color brightening / darkening / saturation adjust, etc. Some of these can be time consuming, others may not 'work' for a specific photo, and so on.

Now when you apply additional lighting to the scene, it can do good things, or bad things, depending on the quality of the light, the angles, and the relative light source sizes (a direct fill flash is very close to a point source, so if anything it typically just hurts the quality of light on the subject). But as long as the flash is isolated to the subject, which is easy to accomplish in most cases, then you can bring the subject up to a level where they are even with, or above the rest of the scene.

In practice I like to always shoot faces in at least the midtones or better, if I am shooting faces in the shadows with plans to bring them up later, it can be very difficult to check in camera for the usual flaws like eyes open, good expression, etc.

"(Personally, I am hoping for a pair of lenses I can implant in my eyes which will record everything I see throughout the course of the day and I can go back later to create individual still images from the footage). And my point was when that day comes, the technical stuff"
I'm not sure why people focus so much on self-augmentation like that would make the perfect camera. If you could do this, you still have to be there to take the photo. Even if your capabilities improve, your content pretty much stays the same. A truly revolutionary jump would be to build remote units or drones, each of which could function remotely and independently or be taken control of by an experienced photographer (when it makes sense). Then you could photograph in places you normally couldn't, you could 'be' in multiple places at once, and you don't have to travel or physically move around to get unique content. In a sense, we are almost there today, except for the expense and that few drones are designed for taking 'good' pictures from a photographic point of view.

Edited on Feb 22, 2013 at 05:37 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:21 PM
Monito
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p.9 #12 · Dynamic Range


alexdi wrote:
If I could shoot at ISO 100K with the same quality as 100, I'd do it, because then I wouldn't have to care about shutter or aperture most of the time.


I'll let this statement stand so that people can laugh at it.

On second thought, It is not laughable, because, as I often say, not everybody works the way everybody else does. OK, if 100K works for you, fine. Many photographers do not wish to abandon aperture and shutter speed since they are part of the artistic control they exercise over the final product.

Sometimes Sony F16 is enough and many times it is not because f/64 or f/2 would be better.


Edited on Feb 22, 2013 at 05:35 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:29 PM
alexdi
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p.9 #13 · Dynamic Range


I love when folks make snide references without actually supporting their sentiments. You're the third so far in this thread. By all means put your brilliance on display. Or don't you think it'll hold water?

Ah, the stealth backtracking edit. I won't rub it in too much, but your second thought should have been your first. For many pictures, particularly with small-sensor devices, aperture and shutter are almost totally irrelevant. DOF is essentially infinite from f/4 and lens sharpness is the same for the entire aperture range. Likewise, while there may be a difference between 1/20 and 1/200, there won't be much at all between 1/200 and 1/4000. If your only concern is freezing motion (which is usually the case), shutter isn't a mental priority if it's past a certain threshold.

It's not that I don't think there's artistry in choosing shutter or aperture. I just don't see why I should have to make that decision under time pressure. Shutter, sure, you can't defer that. But if the Lytro concept could be applied wholesale to a DSLR, why wouldn't you want the ability to adjust your aperture and focus point later?


Edited on Feb 22, 2013 at 05:47 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:34 PM
Monito
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p.9 #14 · Dynamic Range


Edits passing in the night.

You are at liberty to edit your remarks.



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:40 PM
chez
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p.9 #15 · Dynamic Range


And I thought this thread was about the dynamic range of the D800 and examples of how to use it. Silly me.

Looks like the usual clowns have emerged and ruined another interesting topic.



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:49 PM
Monito
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p.9 #16 · Dynamic Range


alexdi wrote:
But if the Lytro concept could be applied wholesale to a DSLR, why wouldn't you want the ability to adjust your aperture and focus point later?


The Lytro concept CAN be applied wholesale to a DSLR. I wouldn't want it because I would always be able to get better results adjusting aperture and focus point in the field. You would agree if you understood how plenoptic arrays work by effectively throwing away pixels.



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:51 PM
mttran
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p.9 #17 · Dynamic Range


chez wrote:
And I thought this thread was about the dynamic range of the D800 and examples of how to use it. Silly me.

Looks like the usual clowns have emerged and ruined another interesting topic.



trust me, there are more clowns running our countries

Edited on Feb 22, 2013 at 05:56 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:52 PM
Monito
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p.9 #18 · Dynamic Range


chez wrote:
And I thought this thread was about the dynamic range of the D800 and examples of how to use it. Silly me. Looks like the usual clowns have emerged and ruined another interesting topic.


You are at liberty to post on the D800 DR if you wish to restrict yourself, or to post on the interesting topic of the broader implications of DR technology, that others are discussing. Or derail it by choosing neither. You have chosen the third option. Silly you.



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:54 PM
alexdi
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p.9 #19 · Dynamic Range


Monito wrote:
You would agree if you understood how plenoptic arrays work by effectively throwing away pixels.


Thank you for that, I too read the press release. You'd get much better responses if you didn't assume your opponents were dumb. I specifically used the word 'magic' in reference to grafting the Lytro concept because I know the physics don't work. Note also the 'if' and 'could'. It was a hypothetical.



Feb 22, 2013 at 05:57 PM
Monito
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p.9 #20 · Dynamic Range


Monito wrote:
You would agree if you understood how plenoptic arrays work by effectively throwing away pixels.

alexdi wrote:
Thank you for that, I too read the press release. You'd get much better responses if you didn't assume your opponents were dumb. I specifically used the word 'magic' in reference to grafting the Lytro concept because I know the physics don't work. It was a hypothetical.


Your post gave no evidence of understanding how the plenoptic array crunches many super-pixels into fewer output pixels, quite the opposite.

Your hypothetical assumed that the DSLR version of a plenoptic array would have as many pixels output as conventional DSLRs at the same time. Thus your hypothetical was demolished.

Many intelligent people have gaps in their understanding, which why other people post discussions on topics in the belief that most readers will use the posts to gain greater understanding. I didn't call you "dumb" or stupid or unintelligent. I simply said you did not understand because your post gave evidence that you did not. If you want to self-identify with "dumb", that is your doing, not mine.



Feb 22, 2013 at 06:03 PM
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