p.3 #1 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
Here's some food for thought. Given that there are about 10 different versions of VR in the various Nikon lenses, and a bunch more in the 3rd party lenses, and given that one person's ability to hold a given VR lens at any given shutter speed vs the rest of the world where every other user will be different, I would be inclined to believe that any compensation built into the camera would be either useless to a lot of users or a big annoyance to a lot of users, or both.
Seems likely to me that even if they did implement something that would effect the exposure differently when a VR lens, with the VR turned on, was being utilized on the camera, that the effect would have to account for the lowest common denominator.
Although I understand the basic premise and tend to agree that it might be useful, I am not capable of determining the practical aspects or feasibility of implementing this feature. It seems to be a very significant undertaking to me and I'd be willing to bet that Nikon would never include 3rd party info in such a feature.
p.3 #2 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
Kerry Pierce wrote:
Here's some food for thought. Given that there are about 10 different versions of VR in the various Nikon lenses, and a bunch more in the 3rd party lenses, and given that one person's ability to hold a given VR lens at any given shutter speed vs the rest of the world where every other user will be different, I would be inclined to believe that any compensation built into the camera would be either useless to a lot of users or a big annoyance to a lot of users, or both.
Seems likely to me that even if they did implement something that would effect the exposure differently when a VR lens, with the VR turned on, was being utilized on the camera, that the effect would have to account for the lowest common denominator.
Although I understand the basic premise and tend to agree that it might be useful, I am not capable of determining the practical aspects or feasibility of implementing this feature. It seems to be a very significant undertaking to me and I'd be willing to bet that Nikon would never include 3rd party info in such a feature.
p.3 #3 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
Graystar wrote:
In ASP modes, cameras have never done anything other than to match the EV of the meter with the EV of the aperture/shutter combination, either by changing shutter in S mode, aperture in A mode, or setting a pre-determined combination in P mode. THAT is the "auto" of auto-mode automation. In ASP modes, the camera makes no decisions for you.
I swear, it's like banging my head against the wall.
Let me be clear: nobody here is confused about how metering works, or what the camera is doing.
In the operation of the camera of in "P" (or a "green square" mode on a consumer body), the camera chooses not only a correct exposure, but it selects which correct exposure - which shutter speed an aperture are appropriate. This is adjustable, yes, but the camera still takes a whack at it first. All I am saying is that the camera, having the knowledge of what focal length is chosen and whether VR is implemented, could weight these variables in its calculations and arrive at a more appropriate set of parameters than without them.
Additionally, you could implement this into the auto-ISO functionality to provide more flexibility without digging into the menu when you switch between a VR and non-VR lens.
Kerry, I agree with you on that for sure. But surely adjusting for a stop of VR (or providing the option to customize it) would be better than nothing?
p.3 #4 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
binary visions wrote:
In the operation of the camera of in "P" (or a "green square" mode on a consumer body), the camera chooses not only a correct exposure, but it selects which correct exposure - which shutter speed an aperture are appropriate. This is adjustable, yes, but the camera still takes a whack at it first. All I am saying is that the camera, having the knowledge of what focal length is chosen and whether VR is implemented, could weight these variables in its calculations and arrive at a more appropriate set of parameters than without them.
I know what you're saying...I'm saying it's not valid. First, don't lump P mode with the green square, as they have very little in common. The green mode is making all sorts of decisions for you based on the shooting conditions, including whether or not to use the flash (which may pop up in daylight if the camera decides you need fill flash.) P mode does nothing more than select an aperture and shutter based on the meter's EV...a selection that is clearly documented in the camera's manual. There are no surprises with P mode (unless you've never looked at the manual, that is.)
As for having knowledge of the focal length, once again, that knowledge is a secondary consideration. The subject matter drives the shutter speed...not the focal length. There is no reason whatsoever for the camera to consider focal length because the camera's guess can be equally right or wrong. You'll gained nothing except to incorporate an unpredictable behavior into the camera's P mode.
This is why the Auto ISO has the MSS in the first place...that gives the photographer precise control over the camera's behavior. And no one with a VR zoom lens needs the focal length considered when setting shutter speed. If I can get a sharp image at 300mm and 1/30s, then there's simply no reason whatsoever to ever increase the shutter any further than 1/30s (with that lens) from a camera-shake point of view. But capturing most live scenes without motion blur will require faster shutters. But how fast? And what does the focal length have to do with the question of how fast? The speed should be determined by the photographer, based on the subject matter. And that's how Nikons work in MASP modes.
Using focal length to determine shutter will get you excessive ISO in some situations, blurry action shots in others and, occasionally, an appropriate shutter for the subject. As I said, if you really want to let the camera make such decisions, just use the Scene modes.
p.3 #5 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
Graystar wrote:
And no one with a VR zoom lens needs the focal length considered when setting shutter speed. If I can get a sharp image at 300mm and 1/30s, then there's simply no reason whatsoever to ever increase the shutter any further than 1/30s (with that lens) from a camera-shake point of view.
I have a 24-85 VR, a 200-400mm f/4 VR, and a 70-300mm VR. I can hand-hold these lenses at varying shutter speeds depending on the focal length selected.
This is basic physics, so I don't understand how you can say a focal length doesn't have to be considered just because VR is there. VR provides an advantage at every focal length, but does not allow you to hand-hold the same shutter speed at every focal length. Some of the auto-ISO functions provide the ability to set a minimum shutter speed in accordance with the focal length for this reason.
I know these calculations won't be perfect. Just because they aren't perfect, though, doesn't mean they can't be better. When you set P mode and meter, the camera is selecting an appropriate set of parameters to produce a good exposure, which you can then adjust, but it does make a first best effort. If the first whack at these parameters is 1/200th, f/5.6, ISO400 but you're holding a 400mm lens, why would it not be better if the first whack chose 1/400th and ISO800, in an attempt to correct for focal length? You're not altering the exposure at all, and the behavior is not less predictable, but you are getting a more appropriate shutter speed for the focal length. Similarly, if you're holding a 400mm VR lens, why would it not be better to remain at 1/200th to retain the cleaner ISO 400? No scenario can factor for the subject, but it absolutely can help achieve a more appropriate hand-held shutter speed.
Maybe we just have to agree to disagree here, I just don't understand why more factual information factored into an automatic setting is worse than a guess based on no information.
p.3 #6 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000
binary visions wrote:
Maybe we just have to agree to disagree here, I just don't understand why more factual information factored into an automatic setting is worse than a guess based on no information.
Yes, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because from my point of view you seem to have completely dismissed the shutter speed requirements of the subject. For similar framing, a portrait of a person requires 1/60s at a bare minimum whether you're using a 24mm lens or a 300mm lens. The 24mm lens only requires 1/40s to minimize camera-shake, but you still need 1/60s for the subject. The 300mm needs 1/500s to minimize camera-shake, but the VR system brings that down to 1/30s...one stop below the 1/60s minimum needed by the subject. So in either case, the shutter speed used is the same. This is what I'm saying...it's the subject matter that drives the minimum shutter speed. THAT'S why Nikon has a Minimum Shutter Speed setting in its Auto ISO...because the camera can't know what the MSS of your subject should be. Only you know that. When you set the MSS, now your camera knows and can react accordingly.
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