fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Nature & Wildlife Posting Guidelines
  

FM Forums | Nature & Wildlife | Join Upload & Sell
1       2       3       …       5      
6
       7       …       10       11       end
   

Archive 2013 · Birders vs Photographers
  
 
uz2work
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #1 · Birders vs Photographers


gkor wrote:
I personally think that baiting raptors is totally inappropriate. The most disconcerting side of it is that it is “promoted” on most photography boards. People will readily think that such shot is an achievement and respond in awe: ridiculous. Most of time, the practice is done in a “circus atmosphere” and people take advantage of the “opportunity” and think that because someone else throws the bait, it is ok: again, ridiculous.
Getting the shot at any cost by any mean for what? For most, instant gratification is the name of the game. These images are taken by most for personal satisfaction...Show more →

When I read a few of the posts in which people justify their practice of baiting based on self interest and are completely dismissive with regard even to considering the possibility that they may be doing something that is harmful to wildlife, my initial reaction is to become discouraged. However, I do realize that, on a wildlife photography board, it is going to be a part of human nature for people to rationalize why what they are doing and what benefits them is acceptable. Further, I also realize that it is to be expected that people are going to be inclined to be supportive of one of their colleagues.

On the other hand, there are other things that encourage me. First, it is good to see that, in spite of the pressure that this board might present toward being supportive of baiting, there are a good number of people who have been willing to go counter to that pressure and give well-reasoned arguments for why baiting is inappropriate. Further, I'm encouraged to have found that, in similar discussions in places other than wildlife photography boards, the prevailing feeling is a strong one against baiting. I'm also pleased to have found a number of wildlife photography forums whose rules prohibit pictures of birds/animals that have been baited, and I've also found some prestigious contests whose rules prohibit entering pictures that were taken with the aid of baiting.

I also find it interesting that the posts of 2 or 3 people (not all) here on the pro-baiting side of the discussion are so revealing with regard to their ethics (or lack thereof) that those posts probably become some of the most convincing arguments as to why baiting is inappropriate, even if that was not the intended purpose of those posts.


Ed Robertson wrote:
I have learned to hate birders and avoid them like the plague. After been attacked by a birder twice my size and wieght. wear a Pink Tee Shirt to show BULLYING BIRDERS IT'S NOT O.K. TO BULLY

Perhaps, the reason why birders (and others) are predisposed to dislike photographers is because they have encountered enough of us whose behaviors/ethics have been quite inappropriate. It is unfortunate, but, as a group, we have earned the reputation that we have. While it may not be right for them to group all of us together, that is a part of human nature, and it is no different than the way you are grouping all birders together.

Les
Feb 06, 2013 at 12:27 PM
Hightraxx
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #2 · Birders vs Photographers


I thought I would say a few words about baiting animals or giving a reward for getting a photo shot, if you agree or disagree that's your choice and that's a part of life, when people say they should never do something you wonder what their motive is for saying such a thing , I see charlene had a dog as an avatar, is it a wild dog that she doesn't feed or is it a dog she owns and feeds, a cat or leopard photo taken or whatever your shooting just act responsively , its a debate no one will get a total agreement yes or no answer for everyone .

Norm, (my avatar has not been harmed or fed for his photograph or bothered or or or)
Feb 06, 2013 at 12:33 PM
nikon65
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #3 · Birders vs Photographers


Dear Ed Robertson, I agree with you totally. I believe that anyone who photographs birds is a "birder". We love birds. We all spend thousands of dollars on gear, travel alot of miles, all to enjoy these awesome animals. I look forward to the day when we can shoot together Ed. All I want to do is be left alone, do my own thing, and have a great time with great people. But I will say one final thing. I'm 6'2" 245 lbs. If we happen to be enjoying nature, and a "bully-birder" sticks a camera in my face, baiting wildlife will be the least of there problems. Your friend and bodyguard, Todd


Feb 06, 2013 at 12:38 PM
Rodney O
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #4 · Birders vs Photographers


Posts disappearing
What happened to post
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1187159/5#11329063 ??
It was here a minute ago. It made a strong statement about 'dumping boxes of pet store mice'. But now a few minutes later it has disappeared?

Censored? Didn't realize that even the poster could remove posts? Edit yes, but not remove?

And the photo posted today by Herb of a Great Grey Owl would seem relevant to this discussion.. particularly on ethics? With the tracks in the snow it would seem that this was an on going activity that day. Or is it just a really stupid mouse that sits on top of the snow when owls are around? yeah, right.
Great Grey Owl Teaser by Herb H
Feb 06, 2013 at 01:13 PM
uz2work
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #5 · Birders vs Photographers


Hightraxx wrote:
I see charlene had a dog as an avatar, is it a wild dog that she doesn't feed or is it a dog she owns and feeds, a cat or leopard photo taken or whatever your shooting just act responsively.

Norm, (my avatar has not been harmed or fed for his photograph or bothered or or or)

I'm not sure that criticisms directed toward Charlene (or praise for her) are called for. Not only do they come across as petty retribution directed toward her, but they sidetrack the discussion away from the factors that should be considered in a discussion related to whether it is appropriate to use baiting or not, and there are issues that would be relevant regardless of whether it was Charlene or anyone else who brought them up.

Les
Feb 06, 2013 at 01:31 PM
ashley138
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #6 · Birders vs Photographers


Interesting to hear the birder vs. photog argument. I am both, and I was a birder first and it was birds that got me into photography.

Both "sides" saying negative things about each other is the "one bad apple spoiling the whole bunch" situation.
Say a birder sees a photog engaging in totally innapropriate behavior - like a photog approaching a snowy owl until it gets uncomfortable and then continuing to approach until the owl flies away - like I saw ONE photog do @ boundary bay. THis situation gives birders a bad impression of all photogs (even though I was there snapping shots and me and all the other photogs near me were all shaking our heads at this disrespectful photog and saying "what a jackass").
Then after seeing one scenario like this, birder dislikes photogs and the next time this birder sees a photog taking shots of a snowy, even though the photog is not approaching too closely and is being respectful of the owl, he feels protective and says "you shouldn't get so close to that owl"
Then, 2nd photog, who hasn't done anything wrong, says to himself "those darn birders, they're all bullys!"

My point being: this can be a viscous cycle, and it's a few bad apples (or extremists if you wil) on either side that can make one person from either group begin to stereotype and dislike all others from opposite group.

I very much like most birders, and most photogs I have ever met, most love the birds. There are a few bad apples and all of us need to keep this in mind. (ex. I was at Boundary Bay on a day where there were about 50-70 people viewing and photographing owls- all but one or two people were extremely respectful of the owls)

Birders and photogs need to band together to educate these "bad apples" of both groups about why their behavior is inappropriate.
Feb 06, 2013 at 02:24 PM
joeyvu
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #7 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
+1

If an owl consumes a mouse that is native to the area and that mouse is diseased, there is a good chance that the owl has already developed an immunity or resistance to the disease that the mouse may be carrying. When the diseased mouse is a pet store mouse, not only is it less likely that the owl will have immunity or resistance to the disease, but it is likely that the photographer who has bought the mouse will have bought, say, a dozen of those mice and there is a likelihood that multiple mice in that batch will...Show more →

First, congrad to Conrad Tan to bring this discussion up for us to discuss and educate to other people (as I am a newbie in bird photog)...I am an animal lover..I have raised chicken, ducks, dogs, cats, fish (fresh and salt-water), corals as well...and now like to watch bird and photograph them as well...

Second, I have personally experienced of feeding captive live food to other animal will sooner or later cause harm to that animal...I bought several goldfish feeder at the petstore to feed my grown-up oscar fishes...It was exciting to see them feeding on those smaller goldfish...However, after couple weeks, these oscar fish began to show some skin disease and started to die slowly one after another, even I tried to medicate the tank...few weeks after, all 8 oscar fish died...I went back to talk to petco store people and they recommend to place the feeder goldfish first in the warranty tank to eliminate all the disease fish first for couple weeks before using leftover to feed the oscar fish...

For me it is a tough call to bait or not to bait...Seeing the bird flying and trying all day and go to bed hungry in the cold night is heart-broken...Yet, if one feed them with the food that we are not sure disease-free is not great either...For me, I don't know what to do....Even for myself, after reading this discussion, I am not sure I even want to try building a bird feeder in my backyard now...I have to read more about it before i do...

Anyway, thank for reading my opinion...

Joey
Feb 06, 2013 at 03:11 PM
harrygilbert
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #8 · Birders vs Photographers


This debate reminds me of when I was photographing Sand Hill Cranes at a local park. Previously the park was un-posted as to feeding (baiting), and I had used a handful of sunflower seeds to attract squirrels, chipmunks, and birds. This day, the park had posted "Do Not Feed the Animals" signs. Well, the small flock of 4 Sandies approached where I was sitting, and the Alpha-male searched me carefully for treats. Finding none, he then walked over to the post containing the "do not feed" sign, and ripped the sign off the post! I was so surprised, I never got THAT shot. Here is the flock approaching





Sandies Approaching
Feb 06, 2013 at 03:33 PM
uz2work
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #9 · Birders vs Photographers


Rodney O wrote:
And the photo posted today by Herb of a Great Grey Owl would seem relevant to this discussion.. particularly on ethics? With the tracks in the snow it would seem that this was an on going activity that day. Or is it just a really stupid mouse that sits on top of the snow when owls are around? yeah, right.
Great Grey Owl Teaser by Herb H

I know some who, when they buy their pet store mice to use for baiting, specifically look for and hand pick ones that are gray/black/brown and avoid the white ones to create the illusion that they just happened to come across an owl hunting natural prey in the wild. As I said in a previous post, I believe that, for those who do choose to bait, full disclosure and posting ethics should call for them to make it clear that they got their pictures using baiting, just like many/most who post pictures of captive animals are truthful and open in disclosing that the pictures were of captive animals.

When I see a picture posted of a raptor that was clearly baited to get the picture and when I see the host of "great shot" comments that follow, I always wonder whether those who post those comments are naive enough to believe that the shot was not the result of baiting, whether they support baiting, or whether they just want to be nice to the extent that they will say "great shot" regardless of what they are looking at.

Les
Feb 06, 2013 at 04:04 PM
acjd
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #10 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
I know some who, when they buy their pet store mice to use for baiting, specifically look for and hand pick ones that are gray/black/brown and avoid the white ones to create the illusion that they just happened to come across an owl hunting natural prey in the wild. ...

Les


Herb is a good photographer with a fine sense of timing getting the money shots. I'll presume he was just that good ... Before anything else.
Feb 06, 2013 at 06:20 PM
Harry.C
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #11 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
When I see a picture posted of a raptor that was clearly baited to get the picture and when I see the host of "great shot" comments that follow, I always wonder whether those who post those comments are naive enough to believe that the shot was not the result of baiting, whether they support baiting, or whether they just want to be nice to the extent that they will say "great shot" regardless of what they are looking at.

Baited or not is irrelevant to the quality of Herb's shot, which is a testament to the skill of the photographer. Anyone who has tried to capture one of these guys diving knows how fast they go and how difficult it is to get a decent shot. The intensity and sense of raw power captured in Herb's shot is what I like, regardless of how the mouse got there.

Yes, baiting is going to make it easier to get a chance at a shot like that, but most of us will not come out with a picture like Herb's if they show up with a mouse and a camera.

Cheers,
Harry C
Feb 06, 2013 at 06:32 PM
uz2work
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #12 · Birders vs Photographers


Harry.C wrote:
Baited or not is irrelevant to the quality of Herb's shot, which is a testament to the skill of the photographer. Anyone who has tried to capture one of these guys diving knows how fast they go and how difficult it is to get a decent shot. The intensity and sense of raw power captured in Herb's shot is what I like, regardless of how the mouse got there.

Yes, baiting is going to make it easier to get a chance at a shot like that, but most of us will not come out with a picture like Herb's if they...Show more →

I'll make two points.

First, there has been one time in my photography experience that I shot a baited owl. Others were baiting the bird, and, sadly, I took advantage of the situation. Immediately after doing so, I felt that I had done something wrong. Seeing how the bird was behaving like a trained circus animal and realizing that repeated baiting over the course of weeks had altered the bird's behavior in a manner that had a possibility of causing harm to it, I vowed that I would never again shoot a baited subject, and, now, I won't even venture into an area where baiting is likely to be happening. Nevertheless, I can tell you from that one experience that shooting a baited owl is like shooting a fish in a barrel. Regardless of the speed at which the bird is flying, you know where it is coming from, when it is going to come, and where it is going to end up. It was some of the easiest wildlife photography I've ever done. And it is, without question, the one of my photographic efforts about which I am the least proud. I've also shot captive birds that were physically fine but, because they had imprinted on humans, were not able to be released into the wild, and getting pictures of them catching prey was equally as simple.

Second, regardless of the technical quality of a photograph, I would not comment on a shot of a baited bird that has been posted on an internet board because I feel that doing so is encouraging a behavior that I feel is wrong on many levels.

I might also point out that, at this point in my life, I do not enjoy, in the least, being publicly critical of what others might be doing, and I am inclined, in most instances, to avoid getting involved with controversy. There are some times, though, when I feel that an issue is important enough that things need to be said, and, even if saying them does not influence those who, in this case, are practicing baiting, if others think about what has been said and if that thinking leads them to act in a more responsible manner, my participation in the discussion has been, to me, worthwhile. In this case, based on the numerous emails and PMs that I have received since this thread was started, I feel that this discussion is accomplishing something positive.

Les


Edited on Feb 06, 2013 at 07:41 PM · View previous versions
Feb 06, 2013 at 07:13 PM
gkor
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #13 · Birders vs Photographers


Harry.C wrote:
Baited or not is irrelevant to the quality of Herb's shot, which is a testament to the skill of the photographer. Anyone who has tried to capture one of these guys diving knows how fast they go and how difficult it is to get a decent shot. The intensity and sense of raw power captured in Herb's shot is what I like, regardless of how the mouse got there.

Yes, baiting is going to make it easier to get a chance at a shot like that, but most of us will not come out with a picture like Herb's if they...Show more →

I am sorry but ..... The quality of the image is irrelevant. The equipment and the status or ability of the photographer to get the shot is also irrelevant in a debate about the practice of baiting. It is obvious that most people cannot look past the image and the friendships when commenting and this is totally off topic.
The same goes for posts discribing photograhers / birders conflicts: irrelevant. The birder's reasons for being opposed to baiting are the same as the photographers who are against the practice. I am even certain that some birders approve of the practice. It is just that baiting pulls some strings in the opposition camp.
Respectfully yours.
Gilles



Feb 06, 2013 at 07:36 PM
big country
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #14 · Birders vs Photographers


if you catch it in the wild as it was happening then that is a shot that takes skill, patience, etc.

if it's baited, the photo is really not that special as far as skill goes.









Feb 06, 2013 at 07:37 PM
kbarrera
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #15 · Birders vs Photographers


big country wrote:
if you catch it in the wild as it was happening then that is a shot that takes skill, patience, etc.

if it's baited, the photo is really not that special as far as skill goes.


Wow! Jason! I do believe that you and I may actually agree on something.

Al
Feb 06, 2013 at 07:41 PM
Harry.C
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #16 · Birders vs Photographers


gkor wrote:
I am sorry but ..... The quality of the image is irrelevant. The equipment and the status or ability of the photographer to get the shot is also irrelevant in a debate about the practice of baiting.

What I said was in the context of the person I was responding to only, and was regarding the comments people were leaving on Herb`s shot.

I think some people are making too much out of this issue honestly. Perhaps in the cases where there are 50 photographers around the bird constantly and it is get a non-stop stream of baited mice you can expect negative consequences. But for some random bird that a few people might bait once in a while, baiting provides a quick meal and nothing else. I've actually been encouraged to go and bring bait (I didn't) when shooting owls by raptor banders, who I would consider experts on the subject if anyone can be.

There are far more destructive things out there for birds that creating a divide in this forum over this subject seems like the wrong thing to do. I know someone personally who, to protect his precious pigeons, has killed countless raptors, including owls. How many photographers have to bait to cause the same damage as a single lunatic with a gun?

Car collisions, habitat loss, global warming, and other destructive forces are doing more to hurt the birds than any army of baiting photographers ever could.

Also -- I've said it already, but I don't bait.

Regards,
Harry C
Feb 06, 2013 at 08:44 PM
uz2work
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #17 · Birders vs Photographers


Harry.C wrote:
I think some people are making too much out of this issue honestly. Perhaps in the cases where there are 50 photographers around the bird constantly and it is get a non-stop stream of baited mice you can expect negative consequences.

Regards,
Harry C



But what you describe is precisely what is happening repeatedly, including the situation with the numerous great gray owl threads that are now on this board. As I pointed out early in this thread, as soon as a great gray owl or a snowy owl, or some other less than common creature shows up somewhere, word of its location spreads quickly via the internet. Large numbers of people come from great distances, and the repeated baiting starts.

Les
Feb 06, 2013 at 09:07 PM
gkor
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #18 · Birders vs Photographers


Harry.C wrote:
What I said was in the context of the person I was responding to only, and was regarding the comments people were leaving on Herb`s shot.

I think some people are making too much out of this issue honestly. Perhaps in the cases where there are 50 photographers around the bird constantly and it is get a non-stop stream of baited mice you can expect negative consequences. But for some random bird that a few people might bait once in a while, baiting provides a quick meal and nothing else. I've actually been encouraged to go and bring bait (I didn't)...Show more →

Thank you for your response. I will just ask you to go check the thread in question "Great gray owl teaser". There you will find my entry. So you see that I am familiar with the compliments posted there about the great image quality, great timing, excellent / wow shot, etc......
It saddens me to say that the overall tone of said thread is just an extension of the "circus" atmosphere usually associated with a well advertised "Owl viewing location" where baiting is eventually bound to take place.
Of course, I do not bait either and can tell you that my convictions have also put myself between Owl and mob of photographers armed with bait. These are not pleasant experiences, threatening, sometimes violent and usually ponctuated with very colourful language, resulting in the fact that I will never again share subject location. I also stay well away from well publisized locations. And I will stand for my convictions.
Furthermore, I am also a hunter but have never or would ever put a road kill in the frezer. I hunt for my wild meat. I respect my prey from start to finish.

This will end my participation in this dicussion.

Regards.
Gilles

PS: I ridicule such imagery. Although they may be perfect technically, these images and the photographers associated with them have no merit in my eyes. The photos tell the wrong story and their educational value is opposite to my belief.
The easiest would be to just ignore them but these days we seem to be swamped with them.
Feb 06, 2013 at 09:42 PM
Jim McCann
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #19 · Birders vs Photographers


Fed wildlife is dead wildlife. It bothers me to have had to compete professionally over the decades with wildlife photographers who rented animals to photograph. I don't rent critters. I don't bait. I won't bait. Some of you are clearly Master Baiters.:-) Good for you.

Jim


Feb 06, 2013 at 10:44 PM
ShutteredMe
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #20 · Birders vs Photographers


I often go to a local pond in a City Park where they would stock trout every other week during the winter. Ospreys/Cormorants/Pelicans are feeding on these trouts. Is this consider baiting?

-Quang
Feb 06, 2013 at 11:18 PM
1       2       3       …       5      
6
       7       …       10       11       end
FM Forums | Nature & Wildlife | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       …       5      
6
       7       …       10       11       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account
Reset passwordNo account? Register