I bait birds in my back yard with a bird bath and small amount of birdseed because I love to see their activity. Homeless people begging on freeway offramps are like crows waiting for someone to throw them some money, because they know that's the quickest way to make a couple bucks. Women in bars with provocative outfits bait men to buy them drinks. I'm baited every time I see Nikon release a new lens. The world is full of advertising of all different sorts. So what if a photographer baits a bird here and there to get a good shot. Is it photojournalism, no. But you still end up with a good shot. As long as no birds or animals are harmed, I don't see the big deal. Patience is great to have, but as a red carpet photographer in hollywood, I need to be proactive to get the shots I want, and they don't come automatically.
Thanks for those comments. Sounds like we've been doing somewhat the same thing with people in the field, though you have probably dealt with more people that I even saw with issues last year. I can say that overall I've also been surprised not to have gotten that many negative responses. The "trick" seemed to be similar to what you mentioned: "Sharing information" helps to develop a better attitude and get one a more positive reception.
However it's sad and annoying when even some people don't care. And in these cases we're talking about some pretty bad behavior at times. Two years ago we had to work with MD DNR to get 2 people stopped from going over to the eagles on the island in Ted's Pond. It probably helped that I know the MD DNR head. We did get both DNR & FWS involved and the guys were caught. Both of them were "pro" photographers. If I remember right, we were able to get quite a number of people from FM involved in tracking that down too.
Maybe this will help. While some people will get arrogantly and belligerently defensive, actually relatively few people do things without getting reinforcement from some source. (Meyer's Briggs Personality indicates ~85% of the population are followers to a major degree) So maybe we do stand a chance of influencing this more than we might think?
How can we expand the awareness of things like your site to newcomers?
Rodney
I feel like I need to make sure that I add a disclaimer here: I am not referring in anyway to Conrad whose photography and ethics I have come to respect highly.
Rodney O wrote:
Maybe this is a decent time to mention this:
Can we improve the "education" and knowledge level of people who are starting to get into wildlife photography? And thereby "nip some of the problems" before they become ingrained as habits? The thought is that if a person learns the good way of doing wildlife photos, they will be less or might be less likely to contribute to these problems.
I find that there seem to be few, if any, good places for newcomers to wildlife photography to get good information on how to do wildlife photography and what is acceptable practice. There are pages about aspects of "ethics", and the occasional how to photograph specific subjects. But not an overview with details for the beginner who is just getting outdoors or has just gotten a new lens. While it may be a bit overly optimistic, I think we stand a chance to decrease some bad photographer behavior if there were a good "beginners guide" for new comers. it should include, info on how to shoot good shots, how to respect critters & what is disrespectful and dangerous to the critters, the importance of understanding "local etiquette", etc.
I would guess that each of us sees inappropriate behavior and actions on occasion. Some of us are hesitant to say anything. Some of us are not. So how often do you intervene to stop a problem and how often do you just walk on?
It's not all that easy to successfully deal with people in situations like that. One way to improve things might seem to be to be able to refer people to a web site or even a couple of web pages that address these issues?
If they are learning something that helps them take better pictures, maybe they will also learn how to be a better "citizen of the wild", so to speak.
Rodney, your post and every post in this thread is educational. It seems like yesterday (2007) when I first started photographing wildlife and posting my shots on this web site. The first couple of years I would post shots taken in either my back yard or from some other site. My shots would have branches in the way and for a few exceptions looked like KAKA. But, I worked hard to get them. I still do. I would look at what others had posted here and say to myself "how did they do it." It didn't take long to figure out environments were being staged, baiting of raptors was occurring or photographers were taking weekend seminars to photograph captive/trained raptors. They leap from here and land over there. Pretty cool, I was tempted in the early days.
The beginners photography guide of ethics is here in this thread.
IMO, most of those who post here regularly do not want to be involved in this discussion. I have read on other internet sites where photographers, in their own posts explained how a shot happened. They were in a blind and had road kill laid out waiting for a golden eagle to appear. God forbid the day I see a photographer baiting bald eagles.
The fundamentals of wildlife photography takes years to perfect. Then it takes years to learn the behavior of what you are shooting. Mastering both of these makes for great pictures. Most importantly, respect the environment. Don't sling a fish in water or lay a carcass out just to get the shot. Much to easy.
Cincy Bruce wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what behavior is being questioned regarding tossing frozen fish into a river? ...
Cincy Bruce wrote:
...There doesn't appear to be enough evidence to prove baiting is altering behavior. Until such evidence is provided I say no harm is being done. ...
Bruce
I presume you are talking about my reference. Les, Eric and Ted have done a great job in explaining the fundamentals of behavior modification.
In regards to baiting eagles, I quote from the guideline.The Guidelines are intended to:
(1) Publicize the provisions of the Eagle Act that continue to protect bald eagles, in order to reduce the possibility that people will violate the law,
(2) Advise ... the general public of the potential for various human activities to disturb bald eagles,.
It also says: ... the Guidelines themselves are not law. Rather, they are recommendations based on several decades of behavioral observations, science, and conservation measures to avoid or minimize adverse impacts to bald eagles.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service strongly encourages adherence to these guidelines to ensure that bald and golden eagle populations will continue to be sustained.
That sounds pretty straightforward to me. It's not illegal but it clearly says "Do Not ..." It says they have decades of experience studying them. If you want evidence, I suggest you call the Contact numbers at the end of the report and ask them. That's why the numbers are there. If you don't believe the USFWS knows what they are talking about, then I don't have any response to that.
Sooo, I guess I'm going to throw myself into the discussion. I'm a photog, a birder, a bander, and above all else, a biologist.
Everyone will have a different opinion on this depending on your personal experiences and ethos. This being the case, I don't see the point in going into detail on my particular personal view.
I will say that us biologists do bait birds sometimes to collect data or to catch birds (which is also collecting data - in case some didn't realize that even though it's a blast, we don't do it just because it's fun).
So, I don't think it's fair to demonize baiting, and it's CERTAINLY not fair to antagonize someone who wasn't even the person baiting - like Conrad.
I also think it's not something to take lightly. The situations mentioned by Alan and a few others are very serious issues (where owls are hanging out waiting for people to arrive). Obviously when people who are coming day after day and baiting in big crowds - not cool. It's just a common sense thing - like everything else.
Cars kill more owls than anything else except habitat loss (for some spp). This is a problem whether people bait or not. Is it possible that baiting could actually make this problem worse - yes, but I will not jump on that bandwagon until I see evidence to support it.
Above all else - use common sense! If it seems like a bad situation like large groups baiting owls day after day yes - probably a bad situation. But a few peeps exploring the bog and baiting an owl or two - probably not a huge deal as long as it's not happening often.
I don't ever bait myself but I hope others who do know to take it seriously and use good judgement (IOW don't be a jackass!). IT IS a lot like playback to call in birds - it can harm birds in some situations. That doesn't mean it's always a terrible thing, it just means we all need to be conscientious of this.
ashley138 wrote:
Sooo, I guess I'm going to throw myself into the discussion. I'm a photog, a birder, a bander, and above all else, a biologist.
Everyone will have a different opinion on this depending on your personal experiences and ethos. This being the case, I don't see the point in going into detail on my particular personal view.
I will say that us biologists do bait birds sometimes to collect data or to catch birds (which is also collecting data - in case some didn't realize that even though it's a blast, we don't do it just because it's fun).
So, I don't think it's fair to demonize baiting, and it's CERTAINLY not fair to antagonize someone who wasn't even the person baiting - like Conrad.
I also think it's not something to take lightly. The situations mentioned by Alan and a few others are very serious issues (where owls are hanging out waiting for people to arrive). Obviously when people who are coming day after day and baiting in big crowds - not cool. It's just a common sense thing - like everything else.
Cars kill more owls than anything else except habitat loss (for some spp). This is a problem whether people bait or not. Is it possible that baiting could actually make this problem worse - yes, but I will not jump on that bandwagon until I see evidence to support it.
Above all else - use common sense! If it seems like a bad situation like large groups baiting owls day after day yes - probably a bad situation. But a few peeps exploring the bog and baiting an owl or two - probably not a huge deal as long as it's not happening often.
I don't ever bait myself but I hope others who do know to take it seriously and use good judgement (IOW don't be a jackass!). IT IS a lot like playback to call in birds - it can harm birds in some situations. That doesn't mean it's always a terrible thing, it just means we all need to be conscientious of this.
i have read every reply in this thread Ashley and no one as far as my old mind remembers singled out Conrad as a bad guy. I love Conrad and still wait for the $5.00 he owes me
Ted
I've seen some pretty bad behavior from photographers in the last few weeks other than baiting just to get the shot. In one instance an eagle that had flown into the trees toward us, a photographer started cawing like a crow at it from about ten ft. away to get a reaction. In another case a woman started clapping her hands at a Snowy that had flown in close to get it to turn it's head toward her. I had taken a few shots, and walked away before she started or would have asked her to stop. I did tell her that she shouldn't have been doing that when she came toward me, but I don't think it mattered to her.
Ted - I was referring to the woman he was originally talking with on facebook. I agree, everyone here has been respectful - as usual on FM, which I love.
Scott makes a good point - most people who engage in totally disrespectful behavior towards birds don't care when we point out that they're doing something wrong, or don't realize it's wrong and disregard our comments. Some of these people will never change, but I think when it comes to baiting or playback, encouraging people who already do it, to do it less often and to be more conscientious about how they do it may be most effective.
UPDATE: And please don't take this as me being petty! I have just been bombarded with info about this WOMAN that I was compelled to share.
So again, I didn't bother myself with digging this up, seems my brothers and sisters in arms felt I should know. Turns out that this lady not only has a photograph of two Burrowing Owls who look very unhappy to have their photograph being taken by a micro 4/3's camera, but also has the GPS location where these owls can be seen. Hmmm... so using point and shoot at close range and telling the whole world via internet where they can get these shots, must somehow be acceptable behavior, as opposed to what I did.
I am a believer in moderation. I am also a believer in hunting. I sometimes hunt with a firearm, a bow, or a camera. depending on all sorts of variables, it is a life I live. In order for me to sustain my life and happiness, I follow the rules and laws the society I live in has setup. I dont try to second guess.
So with the above being said about me, I say if no law was broken then it is OK.
If it was against the law to feed the wildlife, then I say shame on you.
I've followed Conrad on here a long time.
To think he would put these birds in harms way is ridiculous.
He obviously respects his subjects.
Also, his experience in this realm makes him more than just some random shooter.
I can't believe it's taken this long for someone to point out that you, Conrad, my friend, are a...wait for it....wait for it...waaaiiiiit for it....
A MASTER Baiter!
Keep the shots coming, buddy!
T-bone1 wrote:
I've followed Conrad on here a long time.
To think he would put these birds in harms way is ridiculous.
He obviously respects his subjects.
Also, his experience in this realm makes him more than just some random shooter.
I can't believe it's taken this long for someone to point out that you, Conrad, my friend, are a...wait for it....wait for it...waaaiiiiit for it....
A MASTER Baiter!
Keep the shots coming, buddy!
Late to the party, as usual, but I also wanted to read the whole thread.
Lots of great discussion, and discussion is often the most important point. Can't always change peoples' minds, but if you discuss it, at least they can't say "I've never heard that argument before".
My 2 cents, in a couple points:
--"Baiting" as a catchall is inaccurate, as there are degrees and levels, and those varying degrees make a big difference. I would argue a birdfeeder is a lower "level" than the occasional bait on a hike is a lower level than baiting in an open place that then attracts other people. In other words, all 3 are "baiting", but each is different enough to deserve separate discussion. All affect the animals' behavior, but with different consequences.
--Raptors and other hunters are, by the nature of the food chain, rarer than "regular" birds; sparrows and crows and starlings can handle the death of a couple of their peers better than a hawk or owl or eagle can. I'm in Connecticut, and I could lose 50 starlings in my town without affecting the starling population, but one dead adult eagle would wipe out the eagle population in several towns or a county. (I'm talking about accidents, not old age.)
--I can certainly understand why people would want to see an eagle or owl hunting--everyone here is fascinated by their behavior, or we wouldn't photograph them--and I'm old-school enough that I'd rather see "natural" behavior (i.e., as uninfluenced as possible); I also have an urge to interact with wild animals, and when I do accidentally, it's exhilirating. But I'm also conerned with the long-term consequences of my actions, not just my actions, but the animals' reactions next time he sees a human. I head into the woods for the wilds; when I want trained animals, I go to the petting zoo.
Baiting is not inherently evil, but unthinking adherence to your beliefs on it (or any other topic) is.
1. I do have a bird feeder in the backyard. It's filled every other day or so with bird seeds. At it's present location I don't use it to photograph birds. I use to practice with a bird feeder, but that was years ago. Didn't see it as anything wrong as I felt I was helping them during hard times.....
2. I have once used a bird call to get some kind of reaction out of a Peregrine Falcon. Not knowing what the call meant I managed to get the bird upset. It took off & I've sworn not ever to do so again.
3. as for baiting a bird of prey - - - it's just not something I'd personally do.. It goes against what I believe in.
4. Last Summer while my sister's family was visiting we had visits by dolphins. We were on the beach - they were in the ocean. I happened to find out that there's a study in regards to the dolphin pods in the general area we were. I contacted them & asked them if they'd be interested in my photos. They're time stamped & have GPS & they can see the markings on the fins to help identify the individual dolphins.... Well yes they told me, they would be interested in them, BUT..... did I know that it's illegal to harass the dolphins/wildlife & I got a long lesson in what I'd done wrong & that I can be punished by law for what I'd done. Certain distances have to be kept etc. And boats near dolphins - well that's not a good thing. Well, this happened on FB on their page. I proceeded to inform them that the dolphins were in the ocean swimming close to shore as they can choose to do. And that I in fact was on the beach. My GPS coordinates will prove I was in the sand. Yes I ran along the beach for a while to get some more shots - but the dolphins were not harassed by me & in no danger from me. They had me in every way - they're faster, stronger & could simply have turned out to sea if I in any way irritated them. I wasn't shouting or anything - I was photographing them from a great distance.
End result - - I got so irritated with this person over the fact that I wanted to do something good & contribute to their research and they chose to believe I'd done something wrong. So - I never shared those photos with them. They can go out & get their own research material.
End of story....
Conrad - - beautiful shot of the owl. I'm glad you personally didn't bait the owl.
Ted ellis wrote:
The fundamentals of wildlife photography takes years to perfect. Then it takes years to learn the behavior of what you are shooting. Mastering both of these makes for great pictures. Most importantly, respect the environment. Don't sling a fish in water or lay a carcass out just to get the shot. Much to easy.
Ted
Very well said.
I have considered baiting Raptors and I feel it won't hurt to do so using a natural food source but knowing myself and how I want to get "the holy grail" I wouldn't be satisfied with it if I baited the Raptor whether it be an Eagle, Hawk or Owl. I don't look down on people who bait Raptors though...that's their decision in how they approach their photography.
Lately I've been tempted to bait a juvenile Red-tailed Hawk that is very cooperative and lets you get close to it as it hunts an open field by catching a Rat or Squirrel and releasing it in the field and just sit there and wait for the Hawk to fly from a tree and grab it but after having it catch a Mole and a Rat within feet of me (too close to focus both times this happened) I decided maybe the third times the charm with this Hawk and I will be able to react quicker the next time it happens.
Kudos to you Conrad on how you handled this situation along with you photography and ethics.
I'd like to add one more thought to those that I've expressed earlier in this thread.
Just as the view of most on presentation boards is that, if a photograph is one of a captive bird, the person posting that photo should make it clear that the bird is a captive bird, I feel that, if someone chooses to use baiting to take photos of raptors, he/she should be clearly identifying those photos as ones taking with the aid of baiting. Those who have decided that there is no ethical issue with baiting should have no reservations about letting others judge the photo and the circumstances under which it was taken with full knowledge of those circumstances.
most people on a photography forum are going to have a bias, that whatever it takes to get the shot, then it's ok as long as you are not breaking the law.
there are a couple of things i don't like about baiting owls/birds of prey. they do develop a dependency on humans. at the end of the day they become a zoo side show, and as long as the photographer gets their shot then nothing else matters. as demonstrated in this thread no one really cares or thinks about long term effects, which is typical human selfishness. and once one person sees someone bait, then it becomes a common thing for everyone to do, because now it can be justified that someone else has done it, and it's not illegal. baiting for research or to further ensure the species livelihood is one thing. doing it so you can post a photo online so everyone can tell you how great it is another.
but we can argue all day about the ethics of it and try to rationalize that using a bird feeder is the same thing.
the other thing that you can't argue about with baiting owls/birds w/ pet shop mice is you have no idea where or what that mouse has been exposed to. i use to keep and breed snakes. not all rodent sources are created equal.
recently one of the largest rodent breeders in the united states, one who provides many zoos and pet shops with rodents that had been infected with a zoonotic disease. CDC got involved and it became a serious thing.
introducing (deliberately or not) a captive species (mouse, snake, cat, pig, etc) to the wild is not good and can cause serious havoc.
big country wrote:
the other thing that you can't argue about with baiting owls/birds w/ pet shop mice is you have no idea where or what that mouse has been exposed to. i use to keep and breed snakes. not all rodent sources are created equal.
recently one of the largest rodent breeders in the united states, one who provides many zoos and pet shops with rodents that had been infected with a zoonotic disease. CDC got involved and it became a serious thing.
introducing (deliberately or not) a captive species (mouse, snake, cat, pig, etc) to the wild is not good and can cause serious havoc. ...Show more →
+1
If an owl consumes a mouse that is native to the area and that mouse is diseased, there is a good chance that the owl has already developed an immunity or resistance to the disease that the mouse may be carrying. When the diseased mouse is a pet store mouse, not only is it less likely that the owl will have immunity or resistance to the disease, but it is likely that the photographer who has bought the mouse will have bought, say, a dozen of those mice and there is a likelihood that multiple mice in that batch will have the same disease. And, when the baited owl consumes 6 or 8 or 10 or more of those diseased mice, the chances of harm being done to the owl are multiplied.
There is little likelihood that introducing captive into the wild is going to result in anything positive, and, yes, it is difficult to deny the real possibility that it can cause harm.
I personally think that baiting raptors is totally inappropriate. There are many arguments to be made against the practice but nothing will change people’s behavior: not any science or lack thereof, not even photographer’s personal values or ethics. The most disconcerting side of it is that it is “promoted” on most photography boards. People will readily think that such shot is an achievement and respond in awe: ridiculous. Most of time, the practice is done in a “circus atmosphere” and people take advantage of the “opportunity” and think that because someone else throws the bait, it is ok: again, ridiculous.
Getting the shot at any cost by any mean for what? For most, instant gratification is the name of the game. These images are taken by most for personal satisfaction so keep them personal. There is nothing to brag about such shot. Brownie point deducted, no matter how good a photographer is: friend or no friend ….. Period.
I have learned to hate birders and avoid them like the plague. After been attacked by a birder twice my size and wieght. I was 100 yards from a snowy owl to far away to get any kind of shot . But when I returned to the dyke I had a Bully Birder rush me stick his point and shoot in my face ( about 8 inches from my face ) and he said he wanted to take a picture of an ass h--- I grabbed his fist holding his camera and threw it back in his face and told him to take a self portrait. Moved my camera over to another photog for safe keeping and told the Bully Birder to show me what he's got lets do it. But like most Birder Bully's once you stick up for yourself they don't have the balls to continue. At Boundary Bay in delta there are no laws stating you have to stay on the dyke I know I phoned the city of Delta and called Vancouver who put up the signs to stay on the dyke. They allow hunters off the dyke to go out and kill birds but don't seem to bother them is it because they have a gun ?? I was was a good distance away from the owl showing me some birders don't have a clue what they are talking about. I have seen them yell at people telling them they were to close when they were closer than the photog what a joke. So if you would like to see un informed rude Birders with NO CLASS visit Delta to see the worst behaved birders around . Oh you mite want to take Bear Spray for your oun protection. So wear a Pink Tee Shirt to show BULLYING BIRDERS IT'S NOT O.K. TO BULLY
