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Archive 2012 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?

  
 
edwardkaraa
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p.7 #1 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


I agree that rangefinders are not relevant anymore for street photography, and probably not attractive to most people. However, these are beautifully machined and handcrafted mechanical instruments, and are a pleasure to use, even if modern DSLR and mirrorless cameras are much more advanced with all kinds of features.

I have never enjoyed photography as much, since I got into rangefinders last year. At first, I thought, what the hell is that, I can't even frame accurately with these things It only took a couple of weeks and I became a convert.



Nov 04, 2012 at 07:41 AM
anthonygh
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p.7 #2 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


rattymouse wrote:
Ask yourself this: Are Airbus planes falling out of the sky now since some are now built in China?


Historically..Chine was an advanced nation when the Brits were living in mud huts. it chose not to do down the mass production path the same time that Europe and then the USA decided to. Even Japan went high tech at the beginning of the 20th Century from a cultural base similar to the Chinese.

Now it has decided to go that route and there is no reason to assume that China will not achieve the same prominence in this area as it did in virtually every other over the past few thousand years. Like Japan after the war, it seems to have decided to first act as a manufacturing area for foreign companies...but will use that as a stepping stone. There is no reason to believe a camera made in a Japanese run China based factory will not turn out the same quality as an identical factory in Japan.



Nov 04, 2012 at 08:57 AM
anthonygh
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p.7 #3 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


The 'elephant in the room' is probably Fuji.

It has a rangefinder tradition and is clearly exploring that niche area at the moment. It probably won't compete directly with the Leica market as that product is male jewellery for the wealthy and Fuji has never gone there....also, it is hard to sustain the argument that there is something about that make that...assessed as an image producing device...it is better than competitors by the amount the selling price would suggest.

I would also suggest that the typical purchaser of a manual focus rangefinder is a middle class man with a high disposable income who is getting on in years. The follow on generation might have other priorities in a camera...even a top end take anywhere device.

That is where Fuji come in....




Nov 04, 2012 at 09:10 AM
redisburning
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p.7 #4 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


No autofocus camera is a serious contender to Leica until someone figures out how to marry the heavy but smooth mechanical focusing of a proper helical with the light ones they have to put in autofocus lenses to keep them from wearing themselves out.

as far as the price goes, it makes perfect sense given how hard you have to work to do something noticeably better than your competition when they aren't selling to a price point. again computers basically optimize what you can do at a given price and if you want to do better than you must allow constraints to slip.

do you really think Canon could make the 50/1.4 ASPH for substantially less than Leica? If they can, why don't they?

Sal Glesser, the guy who owns Spyderco, said he could make a Sebenza (a knife that costs 2-4 times the price of a good Spyderco) but in order to do so he would have to charge the same price.

Honestly I think you guys who tow the Leica as horrifically overpriced line are honestly lying to yourselves. Zeiss has made 2 ZM lenses in Germany and they cost Leica prices. What more evidence do you need that the skilled labor, machines and materials necessary to produce such a high level of performance costs a ton of money?

I guess it's easier than admitting that such products are better but that you can't afford them or don't value them as much as the market does.



Nov 04, 2012 at 10:50 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.7 #5 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


redisburning, I don't consider Leica's products horrifically over-priced for what they are - small run, boutique-produced, high quality made-in-Germany photographic products.

But I do consider it possible to produce a rangefinder camera system of decent quality at a markedly lower cost than Leica's products, if a mass market producer were to choose to do so. The catch-22 is they'd only chose to do so if the market were bigger than it is. All the components are there but without a sizeable market slice to go after, I doubt Sony | Ricoh | Cosina-Zeiss or anyone else will choose to do so. But if they did decide to do so, it seems only logical that the product would be built and priced for the mass market and would come in closer to $3,500 than $7,000.

Asserting that others could do it cheaper, by levering their mass production capability, doesn't insult Leica or take anything away from Leica.

Leica prices make perfect sense given how they've chosen to run their business and their cost structure, as they've decided to remain a boutique camera and lens maker with their principal operations in Germany. That's a choice which very directly affects the price of the product. Frankly, given the small size of today's potential digital rangefinder camera market, continuing as a boutique small run maker is probably the right choice for them to make.




Nov 04, 2012 at 01:24 PM
Light_pilgrim
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p.7 #6 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


I think the whole debate is not really going to answer any questions. The only thing that matters is the end results and I am yet to see a photograph produced by Leica that is better than what a modern DSLR can do for 1/5th of the price. You will be able to do a lot more with 5D MKIII or D800 then with Leica: anything from street, landscape, sports or portrait photography.

I would want to have something like Leica for street and occasional travel photography as it is a bit smaller than my 5D MKIII with smaller lenses and bit lighter. Also has a FF.

I think if you will put 2 great photographers and give them the same set of tasks, I think the one with a DSLR is going to achieve better results more consistently. Just my opinion based on my experience with Leica.



Nov 04, 2012 at 04:59 PM
Bijltje
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p.7 #7 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Light_pilgrim wrote:
I think if you will put 2 great photographers and give them the same set of tasks, I think the one with a DSLR is going to achieve better results more consistently. Just my opinion based on my experience with Leica.


I don't agree with u. Great photographers can produce great photo's. No matter what they use.

Not so great photographers indeed might have the edge with the canon. Not that strange. The canon is a all around camera with even my grandmother can use. The leica doesn't help u at all.

Most people will drive a nissan skyline faster around a track than a formula one car. Not because the nissan is faster, but the F1 takes a whole lot of experience to get the best out of it.

Same with the leica. It takes some time to get used to it. But after much practice the results are great.



Nov 04, 2012 at 05:15 PM
Light_pilgrim
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p.7 #8 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Bijltje wrote:
I don't agree with u. Great photographers can produce great photo's. No matter what they use.

Not so great photographers indeed might have the edge with the canon. Not that strange. The canon is a all around camera with even my grandmother can use. The leica doesn't help u at all.

Most people will drive a nissan skyline faster around a track than a formula one car. Not because the nissan is faster, but the F1 takes a whole lot of experience to get the best out of it.

Same with the leica. It takes some time to get used to it. But
...Show more
Sorry, can't agree on both points. If Canon is a better all around camera, then great photographer will make a beter use of it.

How do you compare Leica to a F1 car? Maybe only if you are comparing skyline with alfa romeo F1 from 1950th. This is the whole point, Leica is not faster, doesn't have better DR range or higher ISO. If you would say it is like Rolex, I agree, but it has nothing in common with a F1 car which is all about innovation and technology that is not yet known to road cars. Leica is far from this.



Nov 04, 2012 at 05:46 PM
Spyro P.
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p.7 #9 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Light_pilgrim wrote:
I think the whole debate is not really going to answer any questions. The only thing that matters is the end results and I am yet to see a photograph produced by Leica that is better than what a modern DSLR can do for 1/5th of the price.


yes, maybe, but it's not the only thing that matters.... the other part that matters is getting to the stage where you're actually using the camera, and this is the part where a smaller kit that you enjoy using can make all the difference in the world

When it comes to end results any photo is always better than no photo.



Nov 04, 2012 at 05:56 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.7 #10 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Light_pilgrim wrote:
I think if you will put 2 great photographers and give them the same set of tasks, I think the one with a DSLR is going to achieve better results more consistently. Just my opinion based on my experience with Leica.


Again - based on YOUR experience. I'm happy you have found the system which works for YOU....



Nov 04, 2012 at 05:59 PM
Light_pilgrim
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p.7 #11 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Spyro P. wrote:
yes, maybe, but it's not the only thing that matters.... the other part that matters is getting to the stage where you're actually using the camera, and this is the part where a smaller kit that you enjoy using can make all the difference in the world

When it comes to end results any photo is always better than no photo.


Leica is not that small, nor it is light. It is a but smaller and a bit ligher, but not a day and night. Glass is light and small....this is a big difference, agree. I spent a lot of time talking to leica owners and they admit that despite a lot of practice, they still have many oof pictures...so again, it is not all that easy to use.



Nov 04, 2012 at 06:00 PM
anthonygh
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p.7 #12 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Bijltje wrote:
Same with the leica. It takes some time to get used to it. But after much practice the results are great.


I must be missing something...I have a couple of rangefinders...nothing special unfortunately.....but using them is pretty simple. Why do leicas need some special skill?



Nov 04, 2012 at 06:07 PM
Spyro P.
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p.7 #13 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


anthonygh wrote:
Why do leicas need some special skill?

I guess because inevitably you will find yourself in situations where you wont be able to focus each shot individually and you will need to prefocus, understand the dof of your lens and use it, get a sence of distance just by eyeballing it, focus your lens by feel with the tab etc
On top of that you will need to learn how to compensate for parallax correction inaccuracies if you want any sort of decent framing, maybe compensate for field curvature if you're using very fast lenses etc

Sure this is not a leica-specific way of working, not even RF-specific, it is manual focus specific and you'd have to do most these things with a MF SLR. The problem is that they dont make MF SLRs any more. An AF camera is never the same as a camera that is built from the ground up for MF only, the latter will always be heaps better (for MF). In fact they dont make any MF cameras any more in any category, leica is the only one (that I know of anyway, maybe there is some specialty digicam somewhere).



Nov 04, 2012 at 06:49 PM
anthonygh
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p.7 #14 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Spyro P. wrote:
I guess because inevitably you will find yourself in situations where you wont be able to focus each shot individually and you will need to prefocus, understand the dof of your lens and use it, get a sence of distance just by eyeballing it, focus your lens by feel with the tab etc
On top of that you will need to learn how to compensate for parallax correction inaccuracies if you want any sort of decent framing, maybe compensate for field curvature if you're using very fast lenses etc

Sure this is not a leica-specific way of working, not even RF-specific,
...Show more

Sorry...I have been doing that sort of thing since my first SLR in the 70s...a Canon FTb QL...it is nothing special....in fact I think much the same when using a G10 and think about aperture vs DOF vs probably hyperfocus point. There is no great mystery to it.......Parralex correction is compensated for in the viewfinder of my RF...I would hope the same is true in a Leica costing many times more...



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:26 PM
rscheffler
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p.7 #15 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Red 90 wrote:
The M9 is basically a mechanical rangefinder camera fitted with a full frame sensor. No bells or whistles. It can't shoot high iso, high frames, track wildlife or sports. It's a simple camera with a sensor that is on par with last generations dslr sensors.


I have to somewhat disagree with you on the highlighted points... in part because it seems like you're buying into what all the spec sheet reading pundits prognosticate. True, the M9's high ISO performance is not as clean as current cameras out of the box. OK, some of that is due to older tech, but it's also because Leica applies basically zero NR to the files. That's also what Canon *used* to do, for example with the first 1D, IIRC. The 1DX, with its default NR settings will create SOOC JPEGs that look like they were shot through a shower curtain. Sure, less noise, but also less fine image detail. Same with the Sonys (I've used the 5N and a77 at higher ISOs - RAW files with minimal luminance NR have plenty of granularity). With the M9 it's up to the individual to tailor a suitable NR solution, which offers more control. All the major brands currently remove some of that control from the photographer in exchange for convenience (and more impressive spec sheet performance). Yes, the M9's high ISO performance could be better, but it's not quite the unusable disaster many make it out to be.

Wildlife and sports: It seems the assumption is one needs a 500mm lens and the subject is always moving. But, there have been some really impressive sports images made with wider angle lenses. OK, I'm not going to use an M9 for most football action photos, but I do use an M9 at football games. Unfortunately I don't have any of those photos handy... As for wildlife:

28mm:
http://ronscheffler.com/samples/fmm9/20120922/20120922_0153.jpg
50mm:
http://ronscheffler.com/samples/fmm9/20120922/20120922_0054.jpg

Maybe this is not typical of 'wildlife' as deer are practically as tame as house pets in my area. But, what am I going to do when I only have a bag with 21/28/50 and 90mm lenses along and I want to photograph some animals? I needed to figure out a way to get closer, which I did. Actually, this was what made getting these photos a fun challenge and is generally what I enjoy about the Leica - sometimes I have to do a bit of work and thinking to get the photo. I could have stood back with my Canon and 400 or 600mm lens on the 1DX at 12 fps, but that's easy.

It's an aspect of the Leica that I enjoy a lot - taking the common wisdom of what it *can't* do and figuring out ways to work around that...

Red 90 wrote:
I know leica has a premium, but even in the days of rangefinder film cameras, there were cheaper alternatives like minolta, canon, yashica. If you wanted to get into photography back then, you didn't have to pay the entry price of a leica.


Unfortunately the rangefinder era is long gone. Yes, cost of admission for a digital rangefinder body is high... but if that is what you want and you're willing to spend that money, some of the legacy glass is not all that expensive. Canon RF lenses, for example, or current Voigtlander. Maybe at the pixel level those won't match modern Leica glass, but on the whole, many are not that far off and in some respects might actually produce more interesting images.



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:33 PM
Spyro P.
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p.7 #16 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


lol I know it's nothing special, for you and me who grew up using manual cameras
but these days they make cameras that dont even have distance markings anywhere (most mirrorless cameras and lenses), and most people think it's perfectly fine. Every time I have to do a whole intro on the significance of distance markings, why they were there in the first place and why it's unacceptable not to have them



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:38 PM
rscheffler
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p.7 #17 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


anthonygh wrote:
Why do leicas need some special skill?

Spyro P. wrote:
I guess because inevitably you will find yourself in situations where you wont be able to focus each shot individually and you will need to prefocus, understand the dof of your lens and use it, get a sence of distance just by eyeballing it, focus your lens by feel with the tab etc
On top of that you will need to learn how to compensate for parallax correction inaccuracies if you want any sort of decent framing, maybe compensate for field curvature if you're using very fast lenses etc

Sure this is not a leica-specific way of working, not even RF-specific,
...Show more
anthonygh wrote:
Sorry...I have been doing that sort of thing since my first SLR in the 70s...a Canon FTb QL...it is nothing special....in fact I think much the same when using a G10 and think about aperture vs DOF vs probably hyperfocus point. There is no great mystery to it.......Parralex correction is compensated for in the viewfinder of my RF...I would hope the same is true in a Leica costing many times more...



Sure, you've been doing that since the 70s. Me, since the 80s... What about all the 'new' photographers? It would seem a lot begin with a highly automated camera interface experience that intentionally takes much of the mental work out of the equation. The lack of such automation on Leicas (or similar cameras) is either deemed too primitive, or is intimidating. Therefore it's easier to crash and burn and quickly lose interest when things start to be tougher than expected.

Someone mentioned that Leica photographers must be middle aged men... I would like to direct them to
tokyo camera style where it would seem a lot of the Leica users are actually quite young.

When I was in my 20s, I was quite obsessed by camera specifications and thought nothing about hauling around 30-40lbs of SLR gear through the woods. I suspect a lot of those dismissing Leicas do so purely based on specs and not on actual use, are fairly young, and are interested in specifications. The Leica's specs simply are not appealing and not a logical bang for the buck.

So I think, after some years in photography, one begins to develop appreciation for intangible aspects that may eventually take precedence over spec sheet figures.



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:48 PM
rscheffler
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p.7 #18 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Spyro P. wrote:
lol I know it's nothing special, for you and me who grew up using manual cameras
but these days they make cameras that dont even have distance markings anywhere (most mirrorless cameras and lenses), and most people think it's perfectly fine. Every time I have to do a whole intro on the significance of distance markings, why they were there in the first place and why it's unacceptable not to have them


Interesting you brought that up. That's another reason I decided on a digital rangefinder. It was about the only solution where the lenses had accurate distance scales. I was also contemplating adding a bunch of ZE lenses to my Canon kit, but it was already large and heavy enough, so went the rangefinder direction instead.



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:52 PM
rscheffler
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p.7 #19 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Light_pilgrim wrote:
I think the whole debate is not really going to answer any questions. The only thing that matters is the end results and I am yet to see a photograph produced by Leica that is better than what a modern DSLR can do for 1/5th of the price. You will be able to do a lot more with 5D MKIII or D800 then with Leica: anything from street, landscape, sports or portrait photography.


As I asked a number of pages back, I would still like to know what your definition of better is...

Anyway, I disagree with your statement that the end result is the only thing that matters. I happen to be one of those for whom the trip is equally, if not more important than the destination. It's a significant aspect of what I enjoy about my rangefinder kit. That, and the fact the lenses significantly outperform my Canon L lenses at equivalent focal lengths.



Nov 04, 2012 at 09:58 PM
douglasf13
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p.7 #20 · Leica the only Digital Rangefinder?


Light_pilgrim wrote:
The only thing that matters is the end results...


That is exactly the point that you're missing about shooting a Leica. One can catch many more fish with a grenade than with a fly rod, but, with a fly rod, the journey is as important as the end result.

If you view photography as a trade, maybe like a sports photographer, wedding photographer, etc., the end results may be all that matters to you. If you view photography as an enjoyable art form, the experience is an important part of the process.



Nov 04, 2012 at 10:18 PM
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