hardlyboring wrote:
Exactly.
This is the reason I gave up teaching to pursue photography full time. We are lucky enough to have a capitalist market. As business owners the only ones holding us back is ourselves. There is no limit on what we can make or achieve we just have to work for it.
Teaching was basically a socialist setup. Taxes got thrown into a big pot and pay was split up relatively evenly with all employees. No matter how good I was, how hard I worked, or how long I was going to be making pretty much the same amount of money. Their was 0 movement up.
If you are a photographer you can go up, up, and then up more. No one is going to tell you to stop except yourself. ...Show more →
Mostly agree with what you wrote... however I can't but point out that someone who abandons a "socialist setup" going for a more "capitalist" arrangement.... boy Photography sure is the worst pick I can imagine :P
And yeah I know it's working out for you and I'm both thrilled and proud for you... just saying that if one's goal is to abandon the daily grind of getting paid same as the other workers regardless of effort and make it on your own... there are SO many other professions that aren't anywhere near as saturated and that offer opportunities to leverage your work, choosing photography is a widdle bit nuts :P
lisy78 wrote:
Mostly agree with what you wrote... however I can't but point out that someone who abandons a "socialist setup" going for a more "capitalist" arrangement.... boy Photography sure is the worst pick I can imagine :P
And yeah I know it's working out for you and I'm both thrilled and proud for you... just saying that if one's goal is to abandon the daily grind of getting paid same as the other workers regardless of effort and make it on your own... there are SO many other professions that aren't anywhere near as saturated and that offer opportunities to leverage your work, choosing photography is a widdle bit nuts :P...Show more →
Mike Mahoney wrote: Mike Mahoney wrote:
Again the sense of entitlement .. saying that you haven't yet sorted out how to reach these clients implies that everything else in your business is all set except the branding & marketing part, which in the vast majority of cases is simply not true.
$5-10,000+ weddings certainly exist, but not for everyone .. a strong product and personality is needed to support higher prices and most wedding photographers simply don't have either.
Nobody is "stuck-at-the-low-end" as you say .. the market has determined what they are worth.
Mike, you continue to mischaracterize my argument, so I'll break it down for you. Entitlement is arrogant assumption of one's own value and expectation that payment should simply be handed over. Entrepreneurship, by contrast, is the earnest pursuit of the opportunity to create the most value possible in the market and capture as much of that value (in profit) as possible by honest means.
The OP, Jon, offers a high-quality product -- by my and others' assessment, higher quality than average in the market by a notable margin, at least by photographic standards. A wedding photography product is considerably more than merely the photographs we produce, though: the service experience a client enjoys, the apparent exclusivity of the product, the comfort and assurance an experienced and skilled photographer and people-person brings to the table -- these are all components that create value for the client. I'm not sure what Jon's complete product looks like, but it seems from reading his site and talking with him that he is attentive to these things.
So I'm not arguing that everyone, everywhere, has everything but marketing sorted. I am instead observing that marketing is a glaring weakness in Jon's business, and that it is the first place I'd spend some time and attention before capitulating on price as you argue he should.
Wedding clients are not homogeneous. Whether there are enough $4,000-$8,000 brides in Jon's area is unclear to anyone here, in part because Jon has yet done little to attract their attention to his services. He could simply give up on finding them without ever giving himself a fighting chance. Or, he could try to identify what they value, and decide how to communicate with them in a way that attracts their attention.
In my experience -- heck, just sitting here reading people talk about their businesses -- I'd say hundreds upon hundreds of photographers are "stuck at the low end of the market" not because of any technical failure in their photography or an inability to deliver higher-end service, but because they don't understand how to reach and talk to brides who aren't shopping for a commodity.
Write down every self-employed career out there on it
Throw a dart.
:P
If you want to do even better, only write down things where previous work can be leveraged for future customers. That's not an absolute requirement, of course, but it sure is nice.
Ian Ivey wrote:
Mike, you continue to mischaracterize my argument, so I'll break it down for you. Entitlement is arrogant assumption of one's own value and expectation that payment should simply be handed over. Entrepreneurship, by contrast, is the earnest pursuit of the opportunity to create the most value possible in the market and capture as much of that value (in profit) as possible by honest means.
The OP, Jon, offers a high-quality product -- by my and others' assessment, higher quality than average in the market by a notable margin, at least by photographic standards. A wedding photography product is considerably more than merely the photographs we produce, though: the service experience a client enjoys, the apparent exclusivity of the product, the comfort and assurance an experienced and skilled photographer and people-person brings to the table -- these are all components that create value for the client. I'm not sure what Jon's complete product looks like, but it seems from reading his site and talking with him that he is attentive to these things.
So I'm not arguing that everyone, everywhere, has everything but marketing sorted. I am instead observing that marketing is a glaring weakness in Jon's business, and that it is the first place I'd spend some time and attention before capitulating on price as you argue he should.
Wedding clients are not homogeneous. Whether there are enough $4,000-$8,000 brides in Jon's area is unclear to anyone here, in part because Jon has yet done little to attract their attention to his services. He could simply give up on finding them without ever giving himself a fighting chance. Or, he could try to identify what they value, and decide how to communicate with them in a way that attracts their attention.
In my experience -- heck, just sitting here reading people talk about their businesses -- I'd say hundreds upon hundreds of photographers are "stuck at the low end of the market" not because of any technical failure in their photography or an inability to deliver higher-end service, but because they don't understand how to reach and talk to brides who aren't shopping for a commodity. ...Show more →
I want to mention how well written this is without simply congratulating you for giving me compliments. I appreciate your kind words and encouragement ( Thank you! ), but beyond those things I think you hit the nail on the head.
marti.g3 wrote:
Sounds like charging more simply because you only have a certain amount of time to earn that defines how your business model. But hey, if you can get what you want in that short time, kudos to you !
I knew of a couple who had an office cleaning business they worked at 9 months out of the year so that they could take three months off.
lisy78 wrote:
there are SO many other professions that aren't anywhere near as saturated and that offer opportunities to leverage your work
This gent had an apartment on Park Avenue, becoming a millionaire selling a $5 potato peeler on the streets of NYC.
Building wealth via office cleaning and potato peelers. I'd submit it's not so much the profession one chooses but the business model, sales skills and acumen that makes them the money.
The profession is simply the delivery mechanism of the purchased service or product.
TheGE you have to admit there isn't an army of 19 year olds walking around New York with a paring knife they just bought at Bed Bath and Beyond "Ha I'm going to be a professional potato peeler designer/seller dude/chick"
And I bet that when the guy would go do his thing and asked someone if he could show you his potato peeler, he wouldn't get too many people saying "would you mind if my 16 year old cousin follows you around, she's really into potato peelers and would love this opportunity"
What we used to call the "Marin tax.". Marin county,
a suburb of San Francisco, has the highest
housing costs but had lower wages than other
areas. Many dentists, for example, worked
part-time. One dentist used the dental offices
in the morning, another in the afternoon.
lisy78 wrote:
TheGE you have to admit there isn't an army of 19 year olds walking around New York with a paring knife they just bought at Bed Bath and Beyond "Ha I'm going to be a professional potato peeler designer/seller dude/chick"
And I bet that when the guy would go do his thing and asked someone if he could show you his potato peeler, he wouldn't get too many people saying "would you mind if my 16 year old cousin follows you around, she's really into potato peelers and would love this opportunity"
#threadderailed
So you're saying this guy could make millions selling potato peelers simply because there weren't that many kids competing.
Or like no one would see his presentation and think, "oh I can do that myself with a knife."
Or like no one would think, "if I ever need a peeler there's lots of places I can find one."
Like no one would think, "Five bucks? That's a lot for a potato peeler."
Ore think, "I'm not buying a potato peeler today. I have to talk it over with my significant other."
Mike Mahoney wrote:
In my experience -- heck, just sitting here reading people talk about their businesses -- I'd say hundreds upon hundreds of photographers are "stuck at the low end of the market" not because of any technical failure in their photography or an inability to deliver higher-end service, but because they don't understand how to reach and talk to brides who aren't shopping for a commodity.
swoop wrote:
Freelance commercial pilot. Flying short commuter and vacation hops, tours, cargo/package delivery and supply runs.
But that's a highly skilled specialty profession. Photography is not, anymore. Photography requires no licensing or testing. ANYONE with a cheap camera can do it. OUR profession has been distilled by technology. Sad to say, and it ain't coming back.
You can't even begin to compare the training , experience and licensing required to be a pilot
to that of being a photographer.
Just to add to my previous reply, you hit on something very true. The ABILITY to reach those higher end brides. It takes a lot more than just "understanding" how to do it. There has to be many facets in place to be successful at it.
Skill, talent, business model, appearances, contacts, connections, personality, intelligence and probably a lot more. In our line of work, it takes so many aspects to work at that higher level.
Exactly. I'm not after the high-end bride. I'm after upper middle class. I love love love backyard weddings or beach/forest weddings and I want clients that want the same. Kinda like Sergio's client base. I've been in business 3 years and last Saturday was my first church wedding and I'm OK with that.
I'm not sure what JM's goals are, but by the sounds of it they may be the same as mine. JM, it can be done, you're just not getting the right brides/clients after you. The trick as far as I can tell is to identify where your brides are and market to them. Beyond that, I have no further advice as I'm still trying to figure this one out.
Places to start: Where do these brides shop? what magazines do they buy? what clothes do they wear, etc. Can you market and work with these vendors and magazines? Sometimes these are tough avenues to pursue.
