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Archive 2012 · Leica new products

  
 
wolfloid
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p.16 #1 · Leica new products


A good viewfinder allows you to see critical focus, i.e., Nikon F w/E screen, Leicaflex SL, Leica M. The M doesn't need a big LCD because not only is the viewfinder good enough to see critical focus, you also see if anything/anyone twitched out of focus at the moment of exposure because there's no viewfinder blackout. You just keep shooting, no missed opportunities while chimping to check critical focus.

I did say that with my M6's there wasn't the problem of blackout.

But more to the point, I don't really think you are putting yourself in the situation of what I and others do. We are not in the field of wildlife photography where you either get 'the moment' or not. I am working in an environment where there is continuous action/ movement, which is close up and unpredictable.

There are, of course, techniques and workarounds, like watching for a repeated movement and anticipating it, but sometimes that is just not possible, and I often face the rough and ready of trying to focus as well as I can in an arena of unpredictable, jerky action. Under those conditions it doesn't matter how good your screen is or how uninterrupted the view is, precise focus can only be confirmed by chimping.

You can kid yourself all you like that your 'magic' Leicaflex viewfinder is all you need, and it may be for your work, but although it would help for mine, it does not offer the certainty of checking on a magnified screen. The benefit of this being that if I haven't got 'it' I can go back and patiently try again.

I've worked with the excellent LX and its superb S69 screen (better in my experience than the Leicaflex), I used to work for many years with a pair of M6's, and now I work with a 5D II and a Maxwell screen, all are good tools, and all work very well, but for critical focus only the magnified screen confirms that I've got exactly what I wanted.



May 18, 2012 at 05:49 AM
carstenw
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p.16 #2 · Leica new products


wolfloid wrote:
I am working in an environment where there is continuous action/ movement, which is close up and unpredictable.

There are, of course, techniques and workarounds, like watching for a repeated movement and anticipating it, but sometimes that is just not possible, and I often face the rough and ready of trying to focus as well as I can in an arena of unpredictable, jerky action. Under those conditions it doesn't matter how good your screen is or how uninterrupted the view is, precise focus can only be confirmed by chimping.


Something I don't quite understand here is what you would actually do, if you are doing, say, street photography, and then you chimp after shooting someone walking past, and realize that it isn't properly focused. Would you ask them to pose again? I mean, it seems as if there isn't an opportunity to reshoot anyway. If there is, you can also use LV or a tripod, or?



May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM
telyt
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p.16 #3 · Leica new products


wolfloid wrote:
I am working in an environment where there is continuous action/ movement, which is close up and unpredictable.


How is that different? I'm often up close and wildlife is often unpredictable.

wolfloid wrote:
I often face the rough and ready of trying to focus as well as I can in an arena of unpredictable, jerky action. Under those conditions it doesn't matter how good your screen is or how uninterrupted the view is, precise focus can only be confirmed by chimping.


And how does confirming focus help? If you missed are you going to ask your subjects to repeat their unpredictable actions?

wolfloid wrote:
The benefit of this being that if I haven't got 'it' I can go back and patiently try again.


While you're checking focus you're missing some of the activity and if the focus is off, you can't duplicate the photo with better focus because the activity is unpredictable. I'll chimp to check that I'm exposing as far to the right as possible w/o clipping, but only when the light changes. Focus? Either it's on or it's not, no way unpredictable activity can be repeated so as long as the subject is in front of me I keep shooting.



May 18, 2012 at 11:34 AM
Planetwide
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p.16 #4 · Leica new products


sebboh wrote:
indeed, i was never implying that rangefinders are worse than slrs in this regard. you should get more keepers with a rangefinder on wide angle shots and less on telephoto shots with manual focus. my point was just that sometimes it's helpful to be able to check that you got correct focus. it doesn't come up that often, but the idea that you always know whether you nailed it without looking at the shot is ridiculous.


I would focus bracket, multiple shot on and vary the focus slightly. I have used this technique with almost all manual focus lenses regardless of cam type. For what its worth, I have found that Canon, Pana, and the NEX just aren't that accurate either when shooting super fast lenses anyway. Heck the 5D2 outer focus points would get it wrong almost all the time... The M9 screen is good enough for checking good focus, its not as good as say the sony, but if it looks sharp on the m9 screen it usually is. The NEX can look sharp and be slightly out.

Being an old film shooter, you had to learn your lenses quirks. it was the only way to get sharp images prior to descent AF.



May 18, 2012 at 11:59 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.16 #5 · Leica new products


Andrew Gough wrote:
Being an old film shooter, you had to learn your lenses quirks. it was the only way to get sharp images prior to descent AF.


Being still a film shooter, I have to fully agree. Even with digital, it couldn't be more true. I see photographers with DSLR do more chimping than shooting. I'm glad my Zeiss Ikon doesn't have an LCD



May 18, 2012 at 12:15 PM
sebboh
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p.16 #6 · Leica new products


edwardkaraa wrote:
Being still a film shooter, I have to fully agree. Even with digital, it couldn't be more true. I see photographers with DSLR do more chimping than shooting. I'm glad my Zeiss Ikon doesn't have an LCD


but now that i shoot a NEX i never chimp and i never miss a non moving object. no matter where the subject is in the frame. i really don't think there is any way to argue that the m9 would not be a better camera with liveview, a decent screen, and better image review jpgs.



May 18, 2012 at 12:25 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.16 #7 · Leica new products


sebboh wrote:
but now that i shoot a NEX i never chimp and i never miss a non moving object. no matter where the subject is in the frame. i really don't think there is any way to argue that the m9 would not be a better camera with liveview, a decent screen, and better image review jpgs.


I certainly wouldn't disagree, but for perhaps different reasons. I want the M to have LV and a decent screen in order to cover the weaknesses of RF. With LV, telephoto and macro photography become finally possible.



May 18, 2012 at 12:36 PM
sebboh
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p.16 #8 · Leica new products


edwardkaraa wrote:
I certainly wouldn't disagree, but for perhaps different reasons. I want the M to have LV and a decent screen in order to cover the weaknesses of RF. With LV, telephoto and macro photography become finally possible.


except you need new lenses with longer throw helicoids too.



May 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.16 #9 · Leica new products


sebboh wrote:
except you need new lenses with longer throw helicoids too.


Yeah, or an achromatic close up filter. The samples I've seen have impressive IQ.



May 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM
wolfloid
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p.16 #10 · Leica new products


Something I don't quite understand here is what you would actually do, if you are doing, say, street photography, and then you chimp after shooting someone walking past, and realize that it isn't properly focused. Would you ask them to pose again? I mean, it seems as if there isn't an opportunity to reshoot anyway. If there is, you can also use LV or a tripod, or?

No, you don't understand. Two weeks ago I was photographing two old women, in combination, bending, digging and planting potatoes in Nepal on a narrow terrace less than two metres deep. The photograph I wanted was against the light as one of the women was quickly leaning forward, and I was trying to capture her straining expression, eyes open, as she stretched her hand to drop the seed potatoes. I'd noticed the expression a couple of times, waited patiently, but each time I pressed the shutter something was wrong - either the halo of light, the background, the other woman's position, the eyes were shut, or I'd just missed the critical focus I wanted. I was using a 40/2 manual focus.

I stayed for about twenty minutes as they moved back and forth, and then to a second terrace, and tried my shot 5 or 6 times, each time shooting several frames, as they moved into the right relationship with the light. In the end the sun sunk too low and the light effect was lost, and I didn't get the shot. However, several times I thought I did have it, and while they were moving into the shade along the terrace, and while I waited for them to move into the sun again, I chimped to make sure (not after every shot as Telyt, absurdly, seems to imply). Unfortunately, each time I was disappointed, and so stayed to try again.

This is hardly an atypical situation in what I do, often there are repeated moments of possibility when watching someone work, sometimes there are not - it has little to do with the randomness and fleetingness of street photography. Obviously there is no possibility of using a tripod or any live view that I've seen.



May 18, 2012 at 01:55 PM
wolfloid
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p.16 #11 · Leica new products


While you're checking focus you're missing some of the activity and if the focus is off, you can't duplicate the photo with better focus because the activity is unpredictable. I'll chimp to check that I'm exposing as far to the right as possible w/o clipping, but only when the light changes. Focus? Either it's on or it's not, no way unpredictable activity can be repeated so as long as the subject is in front of me I keep shooting.

your responses seem to deliberately miss any attempt to understand. I am not talking about shooting a bird with a tele, or about a desire to simply get a bird to look toward the camera, or to be easily identifiable (all of which has its own difficulties). I'm talking about a particular combination of movement, light, expression, and intentional activity, up close. (Which of course you could go for in primarily behavioural wildlife photography with shorter lenses, but I've not noticed that in your otherwise admirable work.)

Watching people while they are working is often full of unpredictable movement, but, if you watch long enough sometimes patterns and elements of predictabilty emerge, sometimes not. Either way, though, there is often repetition, even if it is unpredicted repetition, so there are chances to go back. Any chimping I do, is during a phase where I already think I have got what I want, not as you seemed to imply while I am still trying. Who chimps instead of watching the action? This seems to be an intelligence insulting jibe on your part.



May 18, 2012 at 02:10 PM
carstenw
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p.16 #12 · Leica new products


wolfloid wrote:
This is hardly an atypical situation in what I do, often there are repeated moments of possibility when watching someone work, sometimes there are not - it has little to do with the randomness and fleetingness of street photography. Obviously there is no possibility of using a tripod or any live view that I've seen.


It doesn't sound like a very good example though, in the end you didn't get the shot. In this case, if you had not chimped and therefore not realized that the shot wasn't sharp, you would have saved 20 minutes How about an example where the ability to chimp and check focus resulted in a better shot?

Btw, in this situation, rather than shooting again and again, failing again and again, why not just increase depth of field a little.



May 18, 2012 at 02:18 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.16 #13 · Leica new products


I suggest that manufacturers introduce a new technology called ACM (anti chimping mechanism) in which the user is electrocuted when he attempts to review the photo within 30 minutes from taking the last shot. Seriously


May 18, 2012 at 02:26 PM
carstenw
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p.16 #14 · Leica new products


I have an anti-chimping feature on my Hasselblad XPan. It doesn't stop me from looking down though


May 18, 2012 at 02:36 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.16 #15 · Leica new products


The worst was when I switched from A900 to Minolta 7. I couldn't stop myself from looking at the back of the camera after each shot. The fact that the Minolta 7 has an actual LCD at the back didn't really help


May 18, 2012 at 02:39 PM
wolfloid
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p.16 #16 · Leica new products


you would have saved 20 minutes

In this instance you are right.

As to the depth of field, yes, this is sometimes the most practical thing to do, and I wouldn't disdain it. The problem is, the light was relatively low, I needed a fast shutter speed and I was already cranked up to 800 and then 1600 ISO as the light faded.

As it turned out, the biggest problems here were being backed up against the wall of the higher terrace, unable to move as nimbly as I would have liked, and the other woman who was vigorously flapping her skirts and getting in the way.

Sometimes I understand why some photographers ask their subjects to pose.



May 18, 2012 at 02:40 PM
telyt
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p.16 #17 · Leica new products


wolfloid wrote:
I'm talking about a particular combination of movement, light, expression, and intentional activity, up close. (Which of course you could go for in primarily behavioural wildlife photography with shorter lenses, but I've not noticed that in your otherwise admirable work.)

Watching people while they are working is often full of unpredictable movement, but, if you watch long enough sometimes patterns and elements of predictabilty emerge, sometimes not. Either way, though, there is often repetition, even if it is unpredicted repetition, so there are chances to go back. Any chimping I do, is during a phase where I already think I
...Show more

My work with wildlife is very much how you describe yours with people. In particular: "Watching people while they are working is often full of unpredictable movement, but, if you watch long enough sometimes patterns and elements of predictabilty emerge, sometimes not. Either way, though, there is often repetition, even if it is unpredicted repetition, so there are chances to go back"

You wrote: "I'm talking about a particular combination of movement, light, expression, and intentional activity, up close." This is exactly how I work for my wildlife photos. While feeding a shorebird walks in a predictable pattern and occasionally pauses to watch for predators or to preen. A wren has favorite singing posts he returns to at fairly regular intevals. Waxwings return to the same fruit trees every year. Many species of ducks will stand tall and flap after preening or after chasing an adversary away. So how is this unlike your work with people, and given the constantly changing image in your viewfinder, how does checking for critical focus improve the odds of getting a photo that is properly focussed?

wolfloid wrote:
(not after every shot as Telyt, absurdly, seems to imply).


I implied no such thing. In the case of the woman in Nepal I'd have stayed and kept making exposures until the light was gone, the woman walked away, or until I was so exhausted that could no longer stand. I am often in situations exactly like this except for the species of subject. If I knew I had the 'right' shot with critical focus I'd still stay and try for more photos because often after I had the shot I wanted something completely unexpected and far better than my hoped-for photo would happen. Walking away after I knew I had a photo in the bag would on many occasions have meant that I'd have missed something even more spectacular.

Here are a few examples of the unexpected photos that happened after I knew I had the photo I wanted:

http://wildlightphoto.com/birds/phasianidae/sogr02.jpg

280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R, shoulder stock & monopod, 1/60 sec @ f/4, near MFD

http://wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/trswan01.jpg

180mm f/2.8 APO-Elmarit-R, shoulder stock & monopod, about 2.5 meters away

http://wildlightphoto.com/birds/picidae/acwo02.jpg

560mm f/6.8 Telyt-R, shoulder stock, monopod & extension tube, 1/125 sec @ f/6.8

http://wildlightphoto.com/birds/ardeidae/snegre02.jpg

560mm f/6.8 Telyt-R, shoulder stock & monopod, about 4 or 5 meters from the camera

http://wildlightphoto.com/birds/ardeidae/caegre04.jpg

280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R, shoulder stock, about 3 meters from the camera.

Checking for critical focus then leaving when I had the photo I wanted would have meant I would not have any of these photos.

Edited on May 18, 2012 at 09:54 PM · View previous versions



May 18, 2012 at 03:09 PM
carstenw
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p.16 #18 · Leica new products


wolfloid wrote:
As to the depth of field, yes, this is sometimes the most practical thing to do, and I wouldn't disdain it. The problem is, the light was relatively low, I needed a fast shutter speed and I was already cranked up to 800 and then 1600 ISO as the light faded.


There is one more thing which has been left unsaid: trying for 20 minutes to get a shot sufficiently sharp, with the right timing, it seems to me that the strategy really ought to be to get the shot any way you can, and then to optimize afterwards, i.e. ISO 1600 and sufficient depth of field from the start.

What about the shot which wasn't quite sharp? It is amazing how many of the famous classics were not focused right, and still manage to be awesome shots.

Anyway, I still fail to see how chimping is necessary and helpful in situations where time is pressure. I use chimping a lot, but usually only in situations where I am either on a tripod, or have time on my hands. If there is no time, I prefer firing off another shot to chimping to see if the first one was good.



May 18, 2012 at 03:54 PM
wolfloid
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p.16 #19 · Leica new products


My work with wildlife is very much how you describe yours with people.

So you are working at 1-1.5, perhaps 2m away from your subject with a 40mm lens?

No, I thought not. You really have no idea about the differences do you.

With a 40mm lens at 2.8 at 1.5m there is about 23cm depth of field, at 1m, only 10cm. Even at f4 at 1.5m there is only 33cm of depth of field. A bending movement will easily traverse this in a moment.

A 400mm lens at f5.6 at 20m has 64cm, at 10m only 16cm, but at 30m, 145cm. At f8 or f 11, it is of course, much more. From looking at your pictures, if the birds don't fly away, they will mostly stay within most of those ranges.

Apart from that you are going for the head/eyes and anything else that comes along like the mouse in the beak. They are mostly portraits. I'm looking at environmental portraits, which often include other people, tools, materials etc. and I'm often trying to juggle eyes/hands/tools/fleeting expressions/and lighting in sometimes tight spaces.

I see a great deal of difference. I don't want to underestimate what you have to go through to get your pics, but your situations are very different from mine.

If you don't get that, well, then I've tried my best to explain. But that's the end of it now.



May 18, 2012 at 04:53 PM
carstenw
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p.16 #20 · Leica new products


Could you post some examples?


May 18, 2012 at 04:55 PM
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