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Archive 2004 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?

  
 
Bruce Connelly
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p.1 #1 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


All,

Well I've been waiting for things to die down a bit before making this posting but I have to say I'm more than just a little disappointed in the quality of the 1D2 images.

Finally we have a proper DPReview on the camara and while I've been critical of them before - this one appears to nail my feelings. In the image comparisons I have seen there really appears to be very little difference between the 1D2 and a 300D at lower ISO. The gap between 1D2 and 1Ds appears to be much wider than the MP difference would suggest. I accept that the 1D2 is well justified on many other grounds and if no new Canon announcements arrive by September I may well buy a 1D2 and wait but I have to say I really thought this machine would be closer to 1Ds.

Now that the 1D2 supply is getting better - are there any more people like me out there that have much L and TSE glass but are keeping their $4500 in their pockets becuase they wanted the images to be much closer to 1Ds? Also I expected a crash in 1Ds used prices becuase the image quality would be close. The fact that this has'nt happened suggests that others believe the gap between the machines is much wider than first anticipated.

Finally I believe - and this one is going to start a hot debate - that a well scanned, noise reduced and sharpened Astia 100F tran appears to be of similar quality to 1D2 at its best and slightly better than a 300D when the size is over A3+ and there is presently a finacial justification in a 10D/film hybrid strategy that delivers quick results and high quality where landcape is concerned.

I am waiting for your answers Tony and Paul.....



Jun 30, 2004 at 06:08 PM
bouch
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p.1 #2 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Bruce - the 1D2 is probably not worth 5x the 300D for use as a landscape cam. I'll post some more on this later.


Jun 30, 2004 at 06:56 PM
ThomD
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p.1 #3 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Well, 300D has no mirror lock up (unless there is a hack for it), so it is out of the running for me.

I'm loving my 1D classic, but I do wish for better resolution.

-thom



Jun 30, 2004 at 07:18 PM
JoeArndt
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p.1 #4 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Hey, if the 300D works for you, keep it.


Jun 30, 2004 at 07:20 PM
Arka
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p.1 #5 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Horses for courses. It's not really a dedicated landscape camera to be sure, but I sure think it's better at it than my 10D was. The added dynamic range it can capture in a frame precludes the need to composite bracketed exposures as often, and that's one thing I LOVE about this camera. In terms of detail, it's not a 1Ds, but for the added versatility, I think I can take the hit in detail. And if I remember from Phil's Tower Bridge shots, the 1Ds holds a noticeable but still slight edge in the rendering of detail.

For my uses, the 1D II produces files of outstanding quality at higher ISO. Testing in the field is somewhat different from Testing in Phil Askey's controlled conditions, and I must say that Phils 'in vitro' findings don't really translate perfectly the real world. WRT to high ISO, the noise levels are about the same as the 10D, but the quality of the noise is very different. The 1D II's noise is pretty random, and the larger image frame with more pixels (though same pixel density) is almost invisible in prints. I'll see if I can scan an 800 ISO landscape that I recently printed at 20x30 tonight to show you what I mean. There is no visible noise in the shadow areas in prints, and to me, that counts for a lot.

You are asking if the camera is worth 4.5 times the 300D? Hard to say. I was able to get great results with my 10D with some effort, and I certainly appreciate what that 6MP 1.6x sensor can do. I certainly would not want to use a camera without mirror lock up, or one that did not give me complete control over my focusing and metering modes. But is it worth 4.5 times as much? All I can say to that is that I am experiencing NO buyer's regfret, and that the camera is doing a world of good for my photography, so I would say yes. With all high end products, you are seeing a case of diminishing returns here. But given the enormous functionality and versatility you get with the 1D II (let's see, weather sealed, incredible battery life, 1.3x, 8.5 FPS, better flash system, spot meter with multispot metering, dual media slots, superior white balance, instant responsiveness, deep shot buffer, more durable build, etc etc), I think it is pretty close to being worth it. I think the better question to ask is whether a 1Ds is worth almost twice as much as a 1D II, and to that question, I would definitely answer no. The 1D II's high ISO performance and speed alone make it a more versatile camera than the 1Ds. And if you look at the 18x24's and 20x30's that I am getting off this camera and compare it to what you see off my 10D, there is a clear difference. So, as a user of both 1.6x cameras and the 1D II, I can definitely say that it was worth it for me to make the upgrade.

Arka C.



Jun 30, 2004 at 08:27 PM
CyberDyne
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p.1 #6 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


I love DPReviews reviews... but if the upshot were (it isn't) that the MkII images are no better than a 10D/Rebels images?

I'd have to say someone iis not getting the most of there equipment.

I still own my 10D... just sold my 1D... and the image quality differences that the MkII is capable of is signficant. Very significant.



Jun 30, 2004 at 08:39 PM
bouch
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p.1 #7 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Bruce, I think you're asking if the 1D2 is better than the 300D specifically for landscape use. So far you've gotten more general answers.

Image quality-wise at low ISO, the 1D2 is better than the 300D but not dramatically so. The 1D2 has better dynamic range and a bit better resolution. If you want to shoot high-contrast scenes without taking multiple exposures and blending, the 1D2 is great because you can raise the shadows a ton before you have noise problems. Of course the 300D is no slouch in this regard either. The 300D and 1D2 are very much of the same mold as far as image quality is concerned, it's just that the 1D2 is a bit better - and the 1Ds is quite a bit different.

It's hard to describe how the 1Ds landscapes look different, but they certainly look better. I don't know that I'd call it better contrast or truer colors, but to my eyes even though the real detail difference may not be huge you can see the detail in landscape prints quite a bit better with the 1Ds.

Anyway, if you're just looking for an image quality improvement at low ISO, I don't think the 1D2 is worth 5x the 300D. It is worth it if you care about the build quality, AF, buffer size, speed, viewfinder, high ISO, etc. I find the high ISO noise not that much less than the 300D, but the image quality is better because the 1D2 has good colors through ISO 1600 and retains good detail at all ISO's. If you're only shooting landscape, probably only the build quality, buffer size, and viewfinder matter.

Hope this helps,
Tony




Jun 30, 2004 at 09:15 PM
freelancer
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p.1 #8 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


ThomD wrote:
Well, 300D has no mirror lock up (unless there is a hack for it), so it is out of the running for me.

The latest hack puts in mirror lockup and a few other stuff from what I have been following at dpreview



Jun 30, 2004 at 09:51 PM
Wiseman
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p.1 #9 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


All you need to know about the 300D hack:

http://www.bahneman.com/liem/photos/tricks/digital-rebel-tricks.html

mirror lock-up/FEC/iso 3200

These made up my mind to get 300D over D70 given their $250 price difference.



Jun 30, 2004 at 11:13 PM
ThomD
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p.1 #10 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


I thought I had heard about the hack (hence my comment). Even so, I'll stick with the 1 series bodies.

Saw a lot of 300D while on vacation in Hawaii 2 weeks ago. Didn't see any other 1 series bodies, altough I did see 1 or 2 white lenses - don't know what they were attached to. I'm getting used to people moving aside when I bring out the 70-200. I used to think it was weird. Now I just say thank you and take advantage of the opportunity.

-thom

Off topic but my favorite photo from the trip (so far):

http://www.tandemhearts.com/hawaii-04/ocean-lava.jpg



Jun 30, 2004 at 11:40 PM
M. Best
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p.1 #11 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?





Awesome picture!! I like a lot!





Jul 01, 2004 at 12:54 AM
Kyle Yates
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p.1 #12 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


lovely pics thanx.

High end equipment comes at a price -- the last bit of quality is the most expensive to provide. For example is a 3000 USD CD player really worth 10X a 300 USD one. Probably not to most people -- but if you were an audiophile then the answer is yes. -- Same with cars -- 1 Ferrari or 6 BMW's same answer although I'd rather have the Beamers.

digital photography is still evolving and while we are not 100% there yet the 1D MK II certainly fits the bill for people who need fast accurate AF, fast shooting modes, acceptable resolution, better colour and white balance correction and a whole slew of other options.

If you are satisfied with your current gear don't upgrade.

I for one am very happy with my 1D MK II and while I wasn't disappointed with the D60 you only have to start printing at around A4 to see noticeable improvements in print quality. Finally it gets me saleable pics that I wouldn't have got with a D60 / 10D / 300D so for me do I have any regrets -- No.



Jul 01, 2004 at 03:15 AM
losloslos
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p.1 #13 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


I sure like it a lot too!

Not to harp...but its clear that people are using the SD slot on the 1DmkII as a 2nd memory slot, as opposed to an accy slot (as in Data Verification Kit). I'm STILL baffled why they didn't make it 2xCF+SD.

I sure love my dual slots...with one cam, I'm always ready to go...I'm looking forward to a used 1D by the fall, but not to one slot.

G.

p.s. Anyone use the Data Verification kit (E2) for the 1DmkII (or the E1 for the 1Ds)? I'm looking at getting certified as an Evidentiary Photographer.



Jul 01, 2004 at 03:29 AM
Bruce Connelly
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p.1 #14 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


All,

Thanks for the comments. I think Arka ones regarding dynamic range are very helpful. FYI I print peoples images from all cameras for money here in OZ so I see many bodies but so far not 1D2. For myself I shoot everything and I do appreciate the other things that 1D2 gives me but I guess I really wanted a little closer to 1Ds. I have printed 1Ds and all that you say is true. I really would have liked that camera to have an extra stop of DR but otherwise its great. The issue of no ETTL2 really worries me on even the 300D becuase for my eyes my EOS3 nails the exposure but the digitals don't.My 300D has lockup and it works well.

So how many of you are out there waiting for September and is it a 10D or 1DS replacement we are waiting for? A few months ago we were eeing June predictions of a 1.3X sensor 10D but it did'nt happen.



Jul 01, 2004 at 04:44 PM
bouch
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p.1 #15 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Bruce,

I forgot to mention ETTL-2. Personally I find it to be a huge improvement over ETTL. You can now focus and recompose with a Canon flash w/o FEL.



Jul 01, 2004 at 04:57 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #16 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


As I said in an earlier post on this topic, I love my 1DII, and no other camera currently available meets my needs better with regard to the focus system and many other factors. But, let's get real. This isn't even a fair comparison. After all, the 1DII costs 3+ times what a 10D costs. If someone needs the
precision of a 1DII to earn a living, he/she should get it. If someone who doesn't need it to earn a living but can afford to buy it and still pay the mortgage, buy food, save for the kids' college education, etc., then it is fine for
that person to indulge himself/herself. On the other hand, the 10D will more than meet the needs of most people who take pictures, and that includes most who take pictures seriously. When one learns to use its strengths and how to live with its limitations, it is capable of producing stunning images and
is more camera than most of us, including me, will ever really need. Sometimes, I'm
afraid, we create an aura that forces people to feel bad if they don't have the
best or most sophisticated equipment. The result, for many, is that they continue to feel bad about otherwise excellent equipment or they put themselves into a debt situation which ignores the realities of their lives. Further, there are people out there who own a 10D, use Program mode and couldn't tell you the difference between an f stop and a bus stop. Yet, they
long for a 1DII. Again, this comes from
someone who owns and enjoys the 1DII.
Les

Edited by uz2work on Jul 01, 2004 at 05:05 PM GMT



Jul 01, 2004 at 05:15 PM
JmsWms
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p.1 #17 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Very well said, Les !!


Jul 01, 2004 at 06:02 PM
Andrew MacKay
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p.1 #18 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


I've been bashing a 300d around in the field for 6 months now and I can honestly say that while it's a great little camera, for the hard jobs a 1 serices camera cuts the mustard better.. I previously owned 1 series film bodies.

The 300d with a bged is starting to get loose on its mounting screws, and is showing the knocks of forest work.

I'm looking forward to my 1dmkII later this year.

Andrew



Jul 01, 2004 at 11:30 PM
keithchan
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p.1 #19 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


Don't forget the 1.3x vs. the 1.6x. For me, that was worth a lot, especially since many of my cultural and landscape "winners" were all with the 17-35.

Strangely, now that I have the 1D Mark II, it's so responsive that I got a lot more into photojournalistic shots that were captured right when "the timing was right." Not sure my previous body would have allowed so many new keepers!

Good luck!



Jul 02, 2004 at 12:42 AM
Bruce Connelly
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p.1 #20 · 1D2 v's 300D is it really worth 4.5 times as much?


I hear you Tony on the ETTL issue and Keith on the 1.3X both of these are great points and after all I have the 16-35 and a 550 EX and at last I'd be happy with the combo becuase I'd stop using FEL and would'nt see those mushy 16mm edges.
I guess the real issue is I'm getting frustrated with Canon. I love my EOS 3, its everything a Camera should be. The 1D2 is good but the weight, old battery design and curious menu's really do upset me. What I want is the control layout, weight and battery design of the 10D/300D with the AF speed/accuracy and sensor size of the 1D2 or 1Ds.

Unlike many photographers in Australia I can easily afford either a 1D2 or 1DS today but I'm still using film cameras, MF and 35mm to fill the gaps that a 300D or 10D just can't fill. This takes time, valuable time, time I can't afford and how long before I get an ERR 99 and loose a valuable job?

So surely there are others out there like me, waiting for September or have you all given up now that B+H can deliver 1D2 in a few weeks?






Jul 02, 2004 at 07:52 AM
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