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Archive 2012 · 'Investment'?

  
 
GraemePitman
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p.3 #1 · 'Investment'?


Beauchamp wrote:
That said, using the term "investment" to point clients towards your rates page is super, super douchy, in my opinion.
.


Douchy? That's a bit of a stretch, no?

I think the term 'investment' is applicable. It's a major purchase, which people are putting a lot of time, energy, and money into in order to have a product that will appreciate in value throughout their life. Sure it's a tangible product, but I still think it applies.

It's not uncommon to hear people talk about other products like that too. "I would definitely invest in a Mac instead of paying for a cheaper Dell, because in general they retain their value longer, and have fewer bugs." "If you invest a little more energy into your studies, ..."

Parse out and dissect the term how you want, but I think in our vernacular people are used to hearing it used in that way.

That said, my website uses 'Pricing'.



Feb 08, 2012 at 10:07 AM
RyanFlynn
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p.3 #2 · 'Investment'?


carraig wrote:
Speaking from a client's perspective, a good wedding photographer is an investment. Saying that investments are strictly monetary is ignorant. In fact, how often do you hear terms these days such as "invest in your future", or "invest in your child's education". In both cases, you are spending money with the hope that you better yourself or somebody else as a result.

Before I started 2nd shooting for Spencer, my wife and I hired him for our wedding. The two trips to St Croix, the travel, the album, they were all very expensive. My wife made the determination that pictures were
...Show more

This.

And half the people harping on "investment" probably call themselves "photojournalists". Shall we start on that next?



Feb 08, 2012 at 11:28 AM
Marcus Watts
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p.3 #3 · 'Investment'?


RyanFlynn wrote:
This.

And half the people harping on "investment" probably call themselves "photojournalists". Shall we start on that next?


What are you talking about re photojournalist?

And consider, who do you think ever invested in shares or bonds with the intention of losing money and who do you think expect the word investment as applied to photography would think that less value over time was actually implied.



Feb 08, 2012 at 11:46 AM
marti.g3
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p.3 #4 · 'Investment'?


Excellent wedding photography is an investment in a families most cherished family heirlooms. They're priceless.


Feb 08, 2012 at 11:48 AM
lightwelder
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p.3 #5 · 'Investment'?


Wow - this turned nasty fast. There's no need for ad hominem's.

My initial point was about the misappropriation of a term for what seems to me sales tactics and nothing more. A major purchase is not an investment, otherwise luxury cars would be investments. An item with high sentimental or personal value is not an investment, unless you want to call your childhood photos taken by your uncle Bob investments as well. The hiring of a highly skilled individual in a no redo situation is not an investment, it's just good sense.

Buying stocks is an investment if you expect a return. So is education - since you expect to make more money from that eventually (you can argue that some education programs are not investment grade either - take art school from example).

Photography might be one of the most important wedding related purchased one can make. But lets not kid ourselves, you can charge 15 grand a wedding and your work will still not display at MoMA any time soon. Your dusty album won't be worth any more money in 20 years, even if the memories it enables are priceless. And if you're thinking that your work is an 'investment' just because it enables priceless memories, then Mastercard is the world's biggest investment firm, and no one knew it.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Inku Yo
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p.3 #6 · 'Investment'?


lightwelder wrote:
Wow - this turned nasty fast. There's no need for ad hominem's.

My initial point was about the misappropriation of a term for what seems to me sales tactics and nothing more. A major purchase is not an investment, otherwise luxury cars would be investments. An item with high sentimental or personal value is not an investment, unless you want to call your childhood photos taken by your uncle Bob investments as well. The hiring of a highly skilled individual in a no redo situation is not an investment, it's just good sense.

Buying stocks is an investment if you
...Show more

Why do you shoot weddings? Not meaning to be facetious, but I'm genuinely interested in the reason behind why you chose wedding photography as your profession.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:27 PM
lightwelder
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p.3 #7 · 'Investment'?


Inku Yo wrote:
Why do you shoot weddings? Not meaning to be facetious, but I'm genuinely interested in the reason behind why you chose wedding photography as your profession.


I don't think it has any relevance in this context, but there you go: I shoot weddings because I like being around nice people on occasions that are meaningful to them, and I can provide a service that has significance to them and it's appreciated.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:30 PM
Inku Yo
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p.3 #8 · 'Investment'?


lightwelder wrote:
I don't think it has any relevance in this context, but there you go: I shoot weddings because I like being around nice people on occasions that are meaningful to them, and I can provide a service that has significance to them and it's appreciated.


I can think of several other things you could photograph besides weddings. Now really, what do you love about weddings, in particular?



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:33 PM
lightwelder
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p.3 #9 · 'Investment'?


Inku - I didn't say I <b>only</b> shoot weddings.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:47 PM
dmacmillan
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p.3 #10 · 'Investment'?


lightwelder wrote:
Last time I checked a dictionary...

Last time I checked a dictionary I found that "tog" referred to an article of clothing or a measure of thermal resistance of a unit area.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:55 PM
Inku Yo
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p.3 #11 · 'Investment'?


lightwelder wrote:
Inku - I didn't say I <b>only</b> shoot weddings.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.


Ok... well... kinda seems like you're nitpicking over the use of the word investment and almost downplaying our role as wedding photographers. I like to think that we a chosen and trusted to be a part of two families' most important days in their lives. And for some, that is an investment.

I'm kind of in a rush to head to a meeting, so I know what I wrote doesn't make much sense. I'll try to write more later tonight.

But, for the record, I use "rates" because I share your view on using the word "investment." I just don't care enough to start a whole thread about it.



Feb 08, 2012 at 12:58 PM
lightwelder
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p.3 #12 · 'Investment'?


I pondered hard whether to jump back in this today, and now I regret it. I really don't care about this enough, either. It is informative to know how people justify using marketing speak, though.

I leave it at this: straight talk doesn't make one any less of a photographer, and, if the client's connection with one's work is as strong as one thinks it is, it won't lead to any lost business.



Feb 08, 2012 at 01:06 PM
Beauchamp
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p.3 #13 · 'Investment'?


GraemePitman wrote:

Douchy? That's a bit of a stretch, no?

I think the term 'investment' is applicable. It's a major purchase, which people are putting a lot of time, energy, and money into in order to have a product that will appreciate in value throughout their life. Sure it's a tangible product, but I still think it applies.

It's not uncommon to hear people talk about other products like that too. "I would definitely invest in a Mac instead of paying for a cheaper Dell, because in general they retain their value longer, and have fewer bugs." "If you invest a little
...Show more

re: Douchy

Yeah maybe a bit of a stretch. It's not really a nice word for polite conversation, so I should have phrased differently, but I stand by my opinion. My apologies to all who use "investment" on their site.

Here's the thing. I think there are two conversations happening in this thread, and people should make the distinction.

1. Using "investment" as discussed by the OP, is a website navigation menu item, plain and simple, and that's what I'm railing against.

In that context, it fails miserably at what a navigation menu item is supposed to accomplish: namely, creating an intuitive entry point into another part of the site. It's not intuitive to a client who is simply looking for your rates, prices, pricing, or packages. As mentioned upthread, changing from "investment" to one of these alternatives is likely to result in fewer people contacting you for your prices because they will (gasp!) finally be able to navigate to them intuitively.

For this reason alone, I want this trend to die a fiery death. It is a barrier to effective communication and navigation, and consequently a web-design worst-practice, in my opinion (full disclosure: I design websites).

As a navigation menu item, it doesn't communicate effectively, and once people figure it out, they pretty quickly realize that it's meant as a way for the photographer to make their services sound important. Some people might get this, probably because they already think your services are priceless, but plenty will think of it as weak-sauce sales-speak. They'll probably click anyway, but you're not really conveying anything meaningful by using that one word.

If you really want to communicate these ideas there are a hundred better ways to do so than simply using the word "investment" and thinking people will now value what you do more and grasp the nuance and meaning you think you're injecting into your website navigation menu. Why not write a short paragraph about how important it is to invest in your wedding photographer, and put that at the top (or bottom) of your price sheet? Or better yet, why not infuse all of your branding with the subtle idea that what you do is priceless?

Difficult? Sure. But what isn't?

2. Using "investment" as a more general concept relating to capturing priceless memories is something I have no issues with. If you want to frame conversations around that concept, or put into prose on your site in one or more places, I think that could make a lot of sense.



Feb 08, 2012 at 01:10 PM
jneilosu
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p.3 #14 · 'Investment'?


lightwelder wrote:
Your dusty album won't be worth any more money in 20 years, even if the memories it enables are priceless. And if you're thinking that your work is an 'investment' just because it enables priceless memories, then Mastercard is the world's biggest investment firm, and no one knew it.



Go to your next consult and say "I don't consider my work to be an investment. In fact, I think it's stupid when photographers use this language. Your wedding album won't be worth anything more in 20 years, even if it's full of priceless memories." Let me know how that works out for you.

I think if we had to be honest here, you shoot weddings because it's where the money is. That's understandable, but also unfortunate.



Feb 08, 2012 at 01:18 PM
Beauchamp
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p.3 #15 · 'Investment'?


Marcus Watts wrote:
You're wrong. The less educated find the use of words from the english language not in their more limited vocabulary as pretentious or cheesy.

That does not limit them from creating their own, say using the word dope to mean cool.

Investment is however in the dictionary and has a meaning appropriate to the use we are talking about.


Wow. Elitist much?

Can we avoid talking generalizations about "the less educated" classes, please?

"...the word dope to mean cool" --> Seriously?! This is your argument?

Where do you think the word "cool" came from in the first place? It was popularized in black jazz circles among the "less educated" classes. Kinda like the word dope.

I don't think anybody here is suggesting that the less educated don't know what the word investment means (except maybe you). What we're arguing is that most people are savvy enough to see through it as sales-speak, regardless of how sincerely you are using it.

Cheers,
Chris

/apparently I have strong feelings about this. walking away from the thread now...
//interesting conversation all around...



Feb 08, 2012 at 01:19 PM
rmric0
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p.3 #16 · 'Investment'?


Does "investment" really speak to highly-educated higher end clients? I've worked with a couple of brides from a school in Boston (no, it's not Tufts), and they seemed to have no problem with "pricing." They do understand that it's an important emotional investment, but calling it an investment is transparent (IMHO) to well-educated clients.


Feb 08, 2012 at 01:20 PM
jneilosu
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p.3 #17 · 'Investment'?


And to reiterate for the 5th time, I don't use the word "investment" on my site. But I think your explanations of your position on its use have revealed a deeper stance in your philosophy towards what a wedding photographer is and does.


Feb 08, 2012 at 01:20 PM
Beauchamp
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p.3 #18 · 'Investment'?


jneilosu wrote:
Go to your next consult and say "I don't consider my work to be an investment. In fact, I think it's stupid when photographers use this language. Your wedding album won't be worth anything more in 20 years, even if it's full of priceless memories." Let me know how that works out for you.

I think if we had to be honest here, you shoot weddings because it's where the money is. That's understandable, but also unfortunate.


Seriously? This is acceptable argument? Personal shots at the OPs motives for shooting weddings? I've outlined some distinctions above that might be relevant...

Perhaps we can extend the OP the courtesy that they might be able to both value the timeless and priceless nature of wedding photography and still hate the word "investment" in a website context. I know I do.




Feb 08, 2012 at 01:21 PM
jneilosu
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p.3 #19 · 'Investment'?


Beauchamp,

I've thought of a dozen ways to try to clarify my statement, soften it, but the truth is, this is simply how I feel after reading the OP's responses. I'll leave it to them to correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly think a client sitting in on this would think the same.

I take my job as a wedding photographer very seriously. And there are a shitload of responsibilities that are nervewrecking about it (missing shots, losing files, gear breaking, etc.) And as a groom-to-be, I felt very much like I was making an investment. Remember that clients aren't just hiring you for something that you do today and it's over with no long-term effets. Some photographers seemed like good investments, and some like bad ones.

The post started in the context of websites, but a few of the things the op said made it seem like he/she just genuinely doesn't view photography as an investment, which is a whole different story.



Feb 08, 2012 at 01:47 PM
Brian Virts
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p.3 #20 · 'Investment'?


You can tell it's off season around here...


Feb 08, 2012 at 01:59 PM
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