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Archive 2012 · Nikon D800 announced

  
 
Alf Beharie
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p.15 #1 · Nikon D800 announced


philip_pj wrote:
400% is rather unhelpful, even for noise nazis...isn't higher than 100% extrapolated?


Perhaps, but it does help!



Feb 16, 2012 at 07:29 PM
RustyBug
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p.15 #2 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Bird feathers are definitely potential moire disasters waiting to happen.

I'm starting to lean towards getting the regular D800.


Hmmm ... I think you're wisdom is showing.



Feb 16, 2012 at 07:37 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.15 #3 · Nikon D800 announced


RustyBug wrote:
Hmmm ... I think you're wisdom is showing.


Nah, I'm just impatient and want the first one that ships.



Feb 16, 2012 at 08:00 PM
zhangyue
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p.15 #4 · Nikon D800 announced


Thorsten wrote:
I've been wondering about that, too. Yes, Leica folks don't complain much about moire, but they also shoot different subjects than DSLR folks. We all know that moire can happen in fabric, but what about subjects that are rarely shot with rangefinder cameras, like macros (insect eyes), wildlife (bird feather detail) etc. I hope these won't make for a bad surprise for D800E owners, but who knows.

Also, as a side note, I think the images from the D800E will, for all practical purposes (i.e. prints, web postings etc) look like D800 images and not like Leica images.


I start thinking I should have save $300 ordered D800 to sacrificed the final bit of detail/clarity. For what I am doing now, I may never be able to take this detail advantage anyway. Never tripod, MLU, my blur hand will be the bottle neck of the system

On the other hand, D800E gives me the potential resolution advantage if I needed it.

Let do a case analysis:
A) If you don't need absolutely resolution say:

you are use lens wide open, hand hold shot, you don't need worry about it since either your lens resolution or your blur hand will be a low pass filter for 36M sensor.

B) If you do need absolutely sharpness say:

you are use tripod, MLU, most likely you will at least use f8 and below for FF landscape/macro shot. in this case, your aperture setting/diffraction will acting a low pass filter, again, it is not an issue. If you use ZF21 at f2.8-f5.6 to do landscape shot, chanced to get moire is also very small as rarely you see fixed frequency pattern in landscape shot. Though, I am not sure about how about those random frequency alias to mess up your dynamic range, clarity? This is the biggest question mark in my head right now, are we going to have frequency contaminated image? Hopefully not if the harmonic above those frequency are very low.

Looks like the question became will you trade potential resolution advantage for all your images with the risk of have occasionally moire problem to having risk free and a little bit less sharp image.

To me, I choose 800E. After 3000 frame M9, I never find a single moire problem. and the image do looks more close to real compare my D700, but it might be just 18M vs 12M thing.










Feb 16, 2012 at 08:08 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.15 #5 · Nikon D800 announced


D700 supposedly has a very strong AA filter. From what I can tell of the D800 images thus far, the AA filter is not that heavy.

If an AA filter is properly and accurately matched to the sensor, there really should not be any actual resolution loss vs the same sensor without the AA filter. What appears to be increased resolution are only artifacts which exist beyond the Nyquist frequency - someone please correct me if I'm wrong about all of that.



Feb 16, 2012 at 08:37 PM
zhangyue
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p.15 #6 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:
D700 supposedly has a very strong AA filter. From what I can tell of the D800 images thus far, the AA filter is not that heavy.

If an AA filter is properly and accurately matched to the sensor, there really should not be any actual resolution loss vs the same sensor without the AA filter. What appears to be increased resolution are only artifacts which exist beyond the Nyquist frequency - someone please correct me if I'm wrong about all of that.


I don't know how they design AA filter, if it is not a brick wall filter, you will have to design a filer has attenuation a lot earlier than Nyquist suggested. Thus, the high frequency infomation get attenuated. thus, less sharp as a result.




Feb 16, 2012 at 08:49 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.15 #7 · Nikon D800 announced


zhangyue wrote:
I don't know how they design AA filter, if it is not a brick wall filter, you will have to design a filer has attenuation a lot earlier than Nyquist suggested. Thus, the high frequency infomation get attenuated. thus, less sharp as a result.



Your probably right as I just read AA optical filters cannot be made to act at an exact cutoff frequency.



Feb 16, 2012 at 08:59 PM
sebboh
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p.15 #8 · Nikon D800 announced


Alf Beharie wrote:
Perhaps, but it does help!


only if you have poor vision, it adds nothing.



Feb 16, 2012 at 09:39 PM
Lotusm50
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p.15 #9 · Nikon D800 announced


Alf Beharie wrote:
It will be very interesting to compare it with the upcoming 5D MkIII, which is rumoured to have a FF sensor of around 45mp.



I didn't catch this comment earlier. Where did this tidbit of information come from? It seems a bit incredulous.




Feb 16, 2012 at 10:32 PM
RustyBug
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p.15 #10 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Nah, I'm just impatient and want the first one that ships.




Well, maybe you can pick up a second D800E once the fire sales hit the used market for people that get frustrated & fed up with dealing with moire ... thinking that it won't be much of an issue, only to find out otherwise. It takes talented PP to deal with moire well. I'm not that talented yet.

Some will make it look easy, but if you are a detail fanatic (reason for getting non-AA), you'll likely be an equal fanatic at correcting moire when it occurs. If you aren't going to become a moire correction fanatic, then why bother? To me, it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul's loan shark bookie.

If you're work is critical, then ALL aspects of it is critical (inclusive of moire correction).
I'm still a fan of non-AA ... just realize that it becomes a matter of "pick your poison" and I don't think that many people are really prepared for moire correction. Most people can easily handle sharpening techniques to deal with an AA filter ... but correcting for artefacts and color issues are NOT for the faint of heart ... especially for critical work.

It's not unlike driving without a seat belt ... as long as you don't run into anything, it's not a problem. But when you do run into something, it tends to hurt a bit more than you want it to, it always takes longer to repair than you have time for and it doesn't always come out perfect.



Feb 16, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.15 #11 · Nikon D800 announced


RustyBug wrote:


Well, maybe you can pick up a second D800E once the fire sales hit the used market for people that get frustrated & fed up with dealing with moire ... thinking that it won't be much of an issue, only to find out otherwise. It takes talented PP to deal with moire well. I'm not that talented yet.

Some will make it look easy, but if you are a detail fanatic (reason for getting non-AA), you'll likely be an equal fanatic at correcting moire when it occurs. If you aren't going to become a moire correction fanatic, then why bother?
...Show more

Good points. It's almost always easier to deal with the devil you know than the one you don't (nor can even predict when he's going to show up).



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:12 PM
RustyBug
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p.15 #12 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Good points. It's almost always easier to deal with the devil you know than the one you don't (nor can even predict when he's going to show up).


Bingo !!!

But, if you are prepared to "dance" with the devil ... it can be one smokin' hot dance (as long as you don't get burned).



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:15 PM
j.liam
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p.15 #13 · Nikon D800 announced


I've been following Lloyd Chambers' view on moiré and he suggests that in his experience with the Leica S2 and M9, both without AA filters, it hasn't been this crippling issue. Now there's word that NX 2.3x will have a tool to remove moiré.
Rĝrslett, on the other hand suggests numerous other artifacts due to aliasing will be a greater issue and refers to them cumulatively as "spurious resolution".



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM
rico
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p.15 #14 · Nikon D800 announced


zhangyue wrote:
...
On the other hand, D800E gives me the potential resolution advantage if I needed it.

Let do a case analysis:
...

Your analysis is flawed from the start. Of course, the average Joe will take more resolution, everything else being equal. On those occasions when more is bad, I shoot my 1950s-era glass... on film. Best to think of the 800E as having more noise, not more resolution, not more detail, not more sharpness. The 800E has exactly the same resolution as the 800, but performs no noise reduction (you must do that yourself in post ). Meanwhile, the 800 with AA filter does noise reduction automatically in hardware! This amazing hardware noise reduction works at all apertures, with lenses of any quality, and you get a credit at time of purchase.



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:25 PM
KaaX
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p.15 #15 · Nikon D800 announced


Once again I would recommend people go and read https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/936822/7

It's an excellent discussion of whether AA-less sensors give your actual resolution or spurious resolution. Don't get discouraged by the fact that it seems to be an argument about sharpening at first :-)



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:28 PM
Thorsten
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p.15 #16 · Nikon D800 announced


zhangyue wrote:
you are use lens wide open, hand hold shot, you don't need worry about it since either your lens resolution or your blur hand will be a low pass filter for 36M sensor.



Over on Nikongear, Bjorn Rorslett wrote that aliasing will hit worst when shooting very fast lenses (f/1.4 and faster) wide open, though I have no idea about the theory behind it. He posted some examples, too.



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:29 PM
Wonger
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p.15 #17 · Nikon D800 announced


Could the naysayers of the d800e please address the lack of panic from the Leica and (I think) x100 users? Sorry if the x100 does have a filter but ive read it doesn't. I breifly had a x100 and never noticed moire issues when using mine we have plenty of M9 users on the forum and this doesn't seem to be an issue for them either. The Leica people are no strangers to extremely fast glass either.


Feb 17, 2012 at 01:33 AM
Thorsten
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p.15 #18 · Nikon D800 announced


Wonger wrote:
Could the naysayers of the d800e please address the lack of panic from the Leica and (I think) x100 users?


There is only one version of these cameras, without AA filter, so no point in debating it. In the rare case when moire hits, you just deal with it. If Nikon had released only the D800E, I don't think anybody would bother to discuss the AA filter or lack thereof. It would just be another small item in the 100 spec items that are new with this camera.

Edited on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:44 AM · View previous versions



Feb 17, 2012 at 01:43 AM
zhangyue
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p.15 #19 · Nikon D800 announced


rico wrote:
Your analysis is flawed from the start. Of course, the average Joe will take more resolution, everything else being equal. On those occasions when more is bad, I shoot my 1950s-era glass... on film. Best to think of the 800E as having more noise, not more resolution, not more detail, not more sharpness. The 800E has exactly the same resolution as the 800, but performs no noise reduction (you must do that yourself in post ). Meanwhile, the 800 with AA filter does noise reduction automatically in hardware! This amazing hardware noise reduction works at all apertures, with lenses
...Show more

Can you elaborate more where is the noise come from? IF you mean frequency more than AA filter can handle, then keep in mind that AA is not free, it also remove detail and clarity of your picture as there is no ideal filter exist. Otherwise, there won't be a D800E exist.

KaaX wrote:
Once again I would recommend people go and read https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/936822/7

It's an excellent discussion of whether AA-less sensors give your actual resolution or spurious resolution. Don't get discouraged by the fact that it seems to be an argument about sharpening at first :-)


It is totally different topic, what I am writing is in real world, there IS AA filter exist either by your lens, Blur hand or diffraction. The discussion in the thread is about you already capture the information, but how you DSP it. Without clean job, you introduce Alias, either purposely or not, then, the discussion became if you want spurious resolution or not because of multistage sharpening. (BTW, I prefer it look sharper, the only reason I haven't done it is because of LAZINESS)

If you ask me why M9 file is more crispy, it is not because of spurious resolution cause from without AA filter but because of NO side effect of AA filter

Thorsten wrote:
Over on Nikongear, Bjorn Rorslett wrote that aliasing will hit worst when shooting very fast lenses (f/1.4 and faster) wide open, though I have no idea about the theory behind it. He posted some examples, too.


Without look that thread, I would say either the resolution of the camera is low or I should congratulate you have an ultra sharp wide open lens and ultra steady hand For real world 3D shooting use wide open, I assume you want ISOLATION, most of your frame are OOF, I doubt moire will bother you.

I think I am very clear on my post, you make trade off and judgement by yourself and pick the one you like, that is it.

It is all about sampling frequency (pixels/sensor size), D800E has highest Nyquist than any AA free camera include all MF so far. I am glad Nikon offer this to its customer based on rational choice. (I am scratching my head of sony NEX 7 choice.)

Again, if 18M m9 is not a big issue, 36M D800E will only be better. Nikon is not idiot, and for such a big company, they certainly know what they are doing and they of course are very conservative for their far higher volume compare to Leica. I see no reason for us Hobbyist or professional who care their IQ most be more conservative than Nikon as a Multimillion company.

Again, Choice is yours. down to Individual. If you clear tell your reason/theory against it, just do it. Don't say it is a fact without any explanation.

Edited on Feb 17, 2012 at 02:05 AM · View previous versions



Feb 17, 2012 at 01:44 AM
Thorsten
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p.15 #20 · Nikon D800 announced


zhangyue wrote:
I think I am very clear on my post, you make trade off and judgement by yourself and pick the one you like, that is it. No need to flame.



I wonder where the flame is

Edited on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:48 AM · View previous versions



Feb 17, 2012 at 01:47 AM
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