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Archive 2012 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out

  
 
Pixel Perfect
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p.7 #1 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


SchnellerGT wrote:
As of today, which would you buy?

OPTION 1
Canon 5D Mark II: $2160 (B&H)
Canon 24-70 2.8L II: $2300 (Est.)
Total: $4460

OPTION 2
Nikon D800: $2995 (Est)
Nikon 24-70 2.8: $1890 (B&H)
Total: $4885

That's a $425 difference.



If I could get by with just that one lens, Nikon. And pricing of 5D II is not fair, seeing it's clearly a run-out price. It was same price at launch as D800.

Nikon D800 would replace two cameras, 7D and 5D II for me. But I would take Canon's new superteles any day - well assuming they ever go on sale

My wish for 5D III is 25.6MP or 40D pixel density, 7-8fps, totally new AF or 1D IV AF. D800 gets the same AF as D4, which is great move; AF at f/8. Bet Canon don't offer that feature.



Feb 07, 2012 at 08:56 AM
3catsinky
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p.7 #2 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


I'm taking option 2 just for the AF alone. Id like to see some video samples with the D800.
I'd gladly switch to Nikon, but I don't have 5K to do it.



Feb 07, 2012 at 08:59 AM
Jman13
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p.7 #3 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


eskimochaos wrote:
I doubt that as the resolution increase of the 5D2 became apparent in 8x10" prints. Noting a 24" print from a 12MP D700 to a 24" print from a 36MP D800 would be identical is simply ignorant.


Challenge. There is no way you are seeing any appreciable increase in visible resolution from a 12MP print to a 21MP print on an 8x10. Just not happening. Unless you are examining the prints with a magnifying glass, there's just no way.

A 12 MP print is 353 ppi on an 8x10. A 21 MP print is 467 ppi. That sounds huge. The thing is, the human eye at a normal viewing distance can't resolve that level of detail. You would need to be holding the print two inches from your face (and be able to focus) to see the difference. (At 12" viewing distance, the human eye can generally resolve about 300 dpi...do you often view photographs at 8x12" from 6"?)

In fact, at a normal viewing distance, I bet you could have 24" prints from a 10 MP camera, a 20MP camera, and the D800 and you would not be able to see any difference in resolution. Go up close and examine a 2" area? Yeah, you might be able to, when comparing side by side...but who does this in real life?

I am not saying there isn't a market for this...there certainly is. If you print large, this could be fantastic...but most people don't print large enough to make the resolution increase substantial, and therefore, that extra resolution is basically just taking up storage. I still find the lack of a smaller RAW format a really odd choice here.

I mean, 16 bit TIF files are going to be in the 200 MB range if you need the color depth. Add just a few layers, and you're now talking about 1GB+ working files per image. Even if you have a super fast computer, that's not going to be quick. If you really need the resolution, you do what you need to do, but let's face it...most of us don't. We're talking resolution that is superior to all medium format film, and is getting in the range of 4x5 film. There are some people who need that...if you do, great. But most hobbyists, and even a good portion of professionals...don't. And a smaller RAW format would be a good thing.


Edited on Feb 07, 2012 at 09:23 AM · View previous versions



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:18 AM
Marcus Watts
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p.7 #4 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Chris Beaumont wrote:
How many posts are there going to be where some grump goes into a clearly labelled D800 thread to complain about how it's a D800 thread?

Can't we just, as a species, finally accept that not 100% of everything ever posted on the internet is personally tailored to our specific interests and just quietly avoid them without feeling the need to tell the world?

Being grumpy about someone being grumpy.....I'm so meta!


Good stuff Chris.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:21 AM
cputeq
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p.7 #5 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Heck, I bet it would be hard to tell even up close against the D700 in 24" and smaller prints.

Not as hard as you would think. When I was deciding between the A850 and the D700, I downloaded full-sized JPEGs from imaging-resource and printed both to 13x19". You could tell fairly easily which was the D700 and which was the A850. Granted these were there JPEG versions (I was stupid and didn't DL the RAWs of the same shots), but you could see the yarn threads easier and certainly the numbers on the scale to the right of their images.

I agree. The whole notion of my computer would be too slow is such a lame excuse. You can get a blazing fast computer for less than $2000. Problem solved.


So essentially a Nikon D800 is going to cost $3000 + lens + $2000 computer?

Also, people thinking the PC excuse is "lame" perhaps don't use their images like other people do.

If a wedding photographer shoots 1000 images in a day then has to upload them and sort through Lightroom (or whatever), you've now got a lot of additional processing overhead from rendering previews slower, 1:1 views slower, spot-corrections, etc.

Or, tell the Photoshop user he's being silly when he starts processing layers and masks and/or HDR in photoshop.

Even right now, opening a full-sized CR2 from the 5D2 results in a 120MB document, per layer (heaven help you if you've converted to TIFF beforehand), and this is just opening the CR2 with no adjustments. Three layers (2 duplicates) balloons the document memory footprint to almost 400MB (with OS X Activity Monitor reporting 513MB used by CS5, but again this is with zero adjustments and 3x duplicate layers).

The D800 JPEGS are 20MB+, whereas CR2s from the 5D2 clock in around 25MB...I can only imagine how large the RAWs are from the D800 (nor can I wait to get my hands on a few and try processing them). Edit - Opening the "bride" jpeg in CS5 results in a 206MB document!

Don't get me wrong, it's a sexy little beast and in a low-throughput workflow, 36MP isn't impossible to work with. Increase your shot-counts though and the burden on processing time and resources isn't a simple linear demand.

I think I'm just disappointed in the (assumed) lack of a smaller RAW mode. Trust me, I'd LOVE to have a D800 for landscaping, assuming the DR is where it needs to be. But, I'd also love to use the camera for slightly less-stringent casual/fun shots and having to choose between full-sized RAWs (at what, ~40MB each?) or going JPEG (blah) is a small bummer.

I guess one could argue that my casual/fun shots would do well in JPEG, and maybe they would, but frankly I'm not a fan of Nikon's JPEG processing engine, and I could barely stand even Olympus's highly-praised engine on the E-5. Maybe I'm the minority



Edit 2- Okay....So I downloaded the "bride" JPEG shot, then down sampled to 2550px wide-end using Bicubic sharper....wow, impressive stuff, I almost want to hug my 3MP monitor



Edited on Feb 07, 2012 at 09:40 AM · View previous versions



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:33 AM
longisland.km
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p.7 #6 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Wow, nice release by Nikon...a few thoughts on this that might only be interesting to me...

1) Nikon seems to be firing on all cylinders - can you imagine if Nikon didn't get their production capacity wiped out by an earthquake in Japan and a flood in Thailand and this (and the D4) was released 6 months earlier?

2) Again Nikon throws their previous generation top of the line under a bus, essentially killing it with a cheaper consumer model with better specs in almost every category (think back to the D300 release and the D2X that it killed, now look at the D800 and what it will probably do to the D3x).

3) Nikon has a non top of the line camera with multi-point f/8 capable AF (with one cross type too)

4) For all the arguments put forward about dollar-to-yen differences being the justification for much much much more expensive lenses, its refreshing to see that the introductory price of the D700 and the D800 are the same. (If I am recalling correctly that D700 at intro was $3000).

In any case, I have to tip my hat to Nikon again for having the balls to release a lower end product that bests its previous top of the line product in almost every way. So far, Canon has resisted doing this. I wonder how much longer they can hold back.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:40 AM
innovis
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p.7 #7 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


longisland.km wrote:
Wow, nice release by Nikon...a few thoughts on this that might only be interesting to me...

1) Nikon seems to be firing on all cylinders - can you imagine if Nikon didn't get their production capacity wiped out by an earthquake in Japan and a flood in Thailand and this (and the D4) was released 6 months earlier?

2) Again Nikon throws their previous generation top of the line under a bus, essentially killing it with a cheaper consumer model with better specs in almost every category (think back to the D300 release and the D2X that it killed, now look at
...Show more

+1

And on top of that, many of you remind of game console fanboys sometimes like the war between ps3 and xbox. At the end, the gamers who ended buying BOTH won. I personally use a Canon AND Nikon... I wonder if that makes me a CANIK .



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:46 AM
alundeb
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p.7 #8 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Jman13 wrote:
Challenge. There is no way you are seeing any appreciable increase in visible resolution from a 12MP print to a 21MP print on an 8x10. Just not happening. Unless you are examining the prints with a magnifying glass, there's just no way.

A 12 MP print is 353 ppi on an 8x10. A 21 MP print is 467 ppi. That sounds huge. The thing is, the human eye at a normal viewing distance can't resolve that level of detail. You would need to be holding the print two inches from your face (and be able to focus) to see the
...Show more

I agree that there is next to no visible gain beyond 360 ppi.

But printing at 360 ppi without interpolation gives a quality that is easily discernible from 180 or even 240.

At 16x24", 12 MP gives ~180 ppi, 21 MP gives ~240 and we would need 50 MP to get 360.

In my workflow I have the possibility to set a lower resolution for TIFF files from the RAW conversion, so the lack small RAW is not a big deal.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:47 AM
jamesf99
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p.7 #9 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


longisland.km wrote:
....
In any case, I have to tip my hat to Nikon again for having the balls to release a lower end product that bests its previous top of the line product in almost every way. So far, Canon has resisted doing this. I wonder how much longer they can hold back.



If previous behavior is any indication (e.g. a $6,800 1Dx), they'll hold back until no one buys their cameras.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:48 AM
Brody LeBlanc
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p.7 #10 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Just before Christmas I moved from the D700 to the 5DmkII and I'm really glad I did when I had the chance! D700 used prices are definitely going to start to drop.

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in this camera... I dont know if I'm the only one, but I have absolutely no use for a camera with so many megapixels!

Even when I switched to the 5DII, I noticed a huge change in work flow due to file size. Granted, I'm impressed with the D800, but if held off selling my D700 for this camera, I would have been let down.

I'd much rather see a camera that shoots faster FPS, has a great dynamic range, more well controlled ISO, and more accurate autofocus.

Everyone flames the 5DII auto-focus, but it works great for a lot of applications.

When shooting with the D700, I wasn't overly impressed with the autofocus system and I get about the same keeper rate with my 5DII, but I guess that's probably because of my style of shooting.

I honestly hope canon doesn't pump out some megapixel monster in an attempt to keep up with the pixel war! I think 21mp is more than enough and there are so many other things that could be improved. In fact, I would be happy to see the 5DIII have a smaller pixel count.

I would really like to see D700 high ISO quality in the 5DIII as well as an improved focus system, but still remaining fairly simple. Simple is always good.

If Canon put out a 5DIII with the 1DX sensor, I'd be a happy camper. I think Nikon has actually made it so it'll be harder to sell the D800 compared to the D700, especially to the average DSLR user. I know this because I work in a camera store that mainly caters to professions. I believe most people will see the D800 as a niche product, and I hope Canon realized that and tries to make the 5D what it already was.... The best, most well-rounded full-frame consumer DSLR.

Oh! and the D800 still doesn't have a wheel on the back!? Pfft! USELESS!!

Edited on Feb 07, 2012 at 09:58 AM · View previous versions



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:52 AM
Jman13
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p.7 #11 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


I'm not saying that it would be impossible to see a difference at 24"...just that at normal viewing distances it would be extremely difficult, and I think unless you were comparing the same shot side by side up close, you'd still not notice much. If you are looking for differences, yes...but I've found that up to about 18", unless you get REALLY close, I can't see any discernible difference between prints from my old Digital Rebel to the 1Ds Mark II. At 24" and 30"? Yeah, it's easily visible once I get to about 2-3 feet, but both look good from that distance. Since a 12"x18" I can't see much difference in a 6MP print at any normal viewing distance (which is 166 dpi), I'm assuming that a 12MP print at 24", which is similar resolution to that 6MP print at 18" would also look extremely good. (I don't have any 12MP prints of that size on my wall...just 6, 8 and 16 MP....and a 102MP panorama that's 60" wide....)


Feb 07, 2012 at 09:54 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.7 #12 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


jamesf99 wrote:
If previous behavior is any indication (e.g. a $6,800 1Dx), they'll hold back until no one buys their cameras.


Which should be right around now



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:56 AM
alundeb
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p.7 #13 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Hm, I easily see a difference between the 40D and the 7D for 13x19" at normal viewing distance.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:57 AM
Ralph Conway
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p.7 #14 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


At least:
D700 kills D3 sales, to. Imo the point is not why, but why they needed so long.
This Nikon D800 is first time since DSLR not a "me too even worse" but a stand alone product. They generate a new category like Canon did very successful 6 years ago with 5D.

Congratulations, Nikon!

It is not what I need, but what many, many Nikon shooters where waiting for years. So good D700, D3, D3s where. They just offered half a decade old standard in resolution.

That D800 will become a tremendous success, I guess. Millions of Niconians now first time again have the option to choose. And they will!

For me that means:
Canon will bring out follow ups that served my enhanced needs (they already did, but not in my price level). The last step to top Nikons AF (we will see) and set the new standards for Pro cameras (D4 looses in any case except pricing) was just a sign.
They will go on doing that in each lineup.

So there is a hope having an offer about what I wisch soon: A 18 - 24 MP camera at ISO 25k at a price that fits my pocket.




Feb 07, 2012 at 10:02 AM
leftymgp
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p.7 #15 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


After some time to reflect. I'm not really sure if I'd want a 36mp camera. That really is a pretty serious amount of data for a computer to chew on and 90% of the time I don't need that much resolution. However, if it had an option to do 18mp addition to 36... that would be pretty awesome.


Feb 07, 2012 at 10:15 AM
INFOCUSPHOTO
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p.7 #16 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


I love my 5D II, But its AF Sucks compared to Nikon's D700 and up...... I hope Canon's 5D III is 30+ MP and at least 36+af points.

And of course at $2799 I pray



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:17 AM
pookipichu
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p.7 #17 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


leftymgp wrote:
After some time to reflect. I'm not really sure if I'd want a 36mp camera. That really is a pretty serious amount of data for a computer to chew on and 90% of the time I don't need that much resolution. However, if it had an option to do 18mp addition to 36... that would be pretty awesome.


If you look at the specs, you activate 1.2 crop for 25MP and 1.5 crop for 15MP,



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:18 AM
Lars Johnsson
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p.7 #18 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


To be honest and fair. If this was a new Canon body, nearly everyone here would shout about how good the camera is
It's only to congratulate Nikon shooters that they can buy it for a rather low price



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:19 AM
jamesf99
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p.7 #19 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


leftymgp wrote:
After some time to reflect. I'm not really sure if I'd want a 36mp camera. That really is a pretty serious amount of data for a computer to chew on and 90% of the time I don't need that much resolution. However, if it had an option to do 18mp addition to 36... that would be pretty awesome.


this camera is meant to be around for years. computers will get better, hard drives will once again - some day -become less expensive, and RAM continues to get cheaper. What's hard to handle today may be nothing in another year or two.

You also always have the choice to reduce the size of an image (cropping, re-sampling, etc.) without hurting the image, but all up-rezing is slightly harmful. if you use Adobe (I'm not recommending them) you can reduce right in ACR as you open the image.

In the short term, I see this as more of a storage problem. After all, we all take lots of *second rate* shots, and now they'll take up more space as they accumulate.



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:24 AM
jamesf99
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p.7 #20 · D800, 36mp, af at F8, ect, press release out


Lars Johnsson wrote:
To be honest and fair. If this was a new Canon body, nearly everyone here would shout about how good the camera is
It's only to congratulate Nikon shooters that they can buy it for a rather low price


And it is a rather low price...

Canon will have to reprint all their sales literature now, or make a bunch of stickers to go over their $4,500 price tag.



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:28 AM
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