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Archive 2012 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1

  
 
Mr Joe
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p.2 #1 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


@kosmoskatten - thanks.

I've shot with the Ricoh GRD series of point and shoots, and really like the interface. Shooting with a Sony feels more like using an appliance than a camera. I feel like I'm programming a VCR or something.

Two important factors for me are wide angle performance (21mm and 24mm equivalents are my preferred focal length), and also long exposure capability (the Ricoh will do 3 minutes, haven't looked into the Sony or Fuji yet).

Given these factors, I may be better off with a small dSLR like the T3i as a second camera instead of one of these compact options.



Feb 03, 2012 at 03:34 PM
dgdg
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p.2 #2 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


kosmoskatten wrote:
dgdg: I had a brief stint with 4/3 but I could not come to terms with the smaller sensor format and native crop. APS-C is a bit of a stretch for me, it is a bit of a step down from being a full frame shooter. With 4/3 MFT I find the crop factor too limiting for alt glass.

APS-C has matured enough to be a viable option in itself though I am somewhat invested in M compatible lenses in the hope of a full frame camera somewhere further down the line.

A full frame camera that appeals to me,
...Show more

Yup, hear you.
I have 5d classic as well. Two trips ago I dropped my wide angle trying to change it out on the fly for a family photo. Fortunately, it had a good bounce. Sometimes I have my 400do on and that intimidates me even more. With a youngster, two FF is too much. SO the G3 20mm combo fills a terrific niche for me with outdoor family shots that really look great.



Feb 03, 2012 at 03:39 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #3 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


michaelwatkins wrote:
It'd be nice if Ricoh paired the availability announcement of the zoom lensor with a new GXR product announcement or road map or some such thing.

Straw poll: GXR-II - would you favour:

$349-ish cost as GXR (low barrier to entry), optional improved external EVF for $200 - 300?

$649-ish cost for GXR-II including built in EVF?

GXR-II with a built-in EVF might make the system appear more costly and harder to sell, although the Fujifilm XPro 1 does tend to squash that line of thinking, doesn't it...


This is a really tough call for me. I love the tilt external EVF, but I may consider giving it up for a streamlined internal EVF. Either way, if Ricoh makes a GXR II with a Sony-quality EVF option and tilt LCD, I'll more than likely buy one. The biggest hang up would be not being able to use my Hawk's adapter, so that would be the main thing for me to consider. Being able to close focus my ZM 35/2 to .3m is pretty nice.



Feb 03, 2012 at 03:53 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #4 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Doug, that's a good point about the Hawk's adapter because 90cm or 1m minimum focusing distances with certain RF lenses is a limitation at times, as is 70cm with wider lenses. At the 5N price point though, it isn't excessively painful to keep it along with another system, such as the GXR, if they share lenses. Both are small enough for this to work until (if) the 'perfect' camera ever materializes.

Regarding the poll: I would opt for the more expensive version if only for the implied faster operation and therefore less or no buffer delay. The problem I see with this proposed design is that the modular design of the GXR currently relies on the GXR base to be quite thin in the area along the LCD, so where would an internal EVF fit? Perhaps the body would be made taller, but then it might balloon like the XP1. I'd rather see a dedicated external EVF slot that frees up the hotshoe, or as I mentioned, at minimum a flash sync terminal if the EVF must go on the hotshoe. I would very much like to see the EVF positioned at the top left of the camera (when viewed from the back) like the NEX-7 and Leica's M series.



Feb 03, 2012 at 04:19 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #5 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Thanks so much for everyone's contribution.

µ4/3rds: I have had pretty much all of them, but the UWA aspect is the killer. The 7–14 zoom is a fine lens, but with ~5% barrel distortion which is corrected in camera for JPEGS, but I am not sure about raw files. And all have AA sensors.

Lloyd commented on my images that he saw a slight cyan cast in the corners (with the CV 12 and 15 on the GXR M); I had not noticed this—but on re-reading Sean Reid's excellent reviews (of both the A12 M on its own and a comparison between it and the NEX 5n), I recalled that the Ricoh has in-camera correction for both cast and distortion. Simple testing to select which of the three settings will do the job, and problem solved.

uscmatt99 wrote:

Ideally, it would be great if the EVF was flush on the left upper corner of the body and could tilt up like the current external EVF.

Exactly what I asked for over at the 'no love' thread: even though I have commented elsewhere about how unergonomic clip-on finders are, the fact is the tilt-up variety are extremely handy for some things. And, occasionally, I take it off the GXR and shoot P&S-type snaps using the back screen and the A12 50 macro module, and it works very well.

I passed on the NEX 5n because no flash if using the EVF; I use the Ricoh's built-in flash to trigger strobes in the table top situation or for interiors—and a business card blocks its contribution—and no preflash.

I hope the A16 M is a reality, but in the meantime, the small, un-pretty, block of metal is making excellent images. The more I get into the capacities of this tool, the more I realise that, presently, this is the most under-rated camera on the planet. I have decided that I do not want to run two systems—but like most here, have had to, because one camera would not do all that we want. I have sold all the other gear, and will be sticking with this, I think. The XPro1 is the best-looking camera I have seen for a while, and it has no AA filter, and as Douglas says, we will have to see how it performs with the CV and Leica UWAs, but—and this is a big but—it has no tilt-out LCD nor a tilt up EVF. I am still sitting on the fence about my pre-order.

Last point on ergonomics: the GXR is excellent, save for one thing (for me, at least): the very useful zoom rockers can be set to other functions, and I have followed kosmo's advice re. setting this to exposure comp. on the M module. I have found, though, that I tend to pick this tiny camera up by the right-hand corner, and often have re-set the exp. comp. It's not a problem in that the screen or EVF always show when this has been selected, but there have been times when I have had to reset to what I want and then pre 'OK', unnecessary steps when working quickly. I wanted an L-bracket, because cameras have to be perfectly level when shooting interiors if you want to about converging verticals as everyone knows here, but RRS do not have one specifically for the GXR. So a very helpful Casey from RRS sent me an MC-L, which I found will not line up properly with the tripod hold, so I fitted it backwards. I found that I really liked the resulting ergonomics, and the camera fits my hand much better as a result of the upright of the L sitting out ~15mm—it doesn't look good, but it positions the palm just that bit further out, and all buttons are reachable AND I don't reset the exp, comp.!

I wil be modifying the bracket with a Dremel, so it can go on the right way when on a tripod, and go on the wrong way for hand-holding. Pics to follow, if anyone's interested.



Feb 03, 2012 at 04:28 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #6 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Ron, thats a good point about the depth of the camera in the ideal place for a built-in viewfinder. As I never take my M mount module off it is easy to forget that dimension of the camera.

A sync terminal would be an easy low tech solution although a hot shoe would probably be preferred by most. If the GXR-II were aimed at upscale users maybe most would not mind seeing the pop up flash disappear in favour of a mounting port for an updated EVF. Would get my vote.

While we are re-designing the camera could we have the tripod mount moved in-line with the lens axis, also freeing up access to the battery compartment in the process? Maybe there isn't enough metal there for a sturdy mount.



Feb 03, 2012 at 06:22 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #7 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


I would be one who would mind if the pop up flash disappeared; as I mentioned, I use them all the time to trigger strobes.

Agree 100% re. moving the tripod mount, though.

And if the EVF could tilt up and telescope out a bit, that'd be great, too.



Feb 03, 2012 at 08:41 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #8 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Understood.

Personally I'd be ok with the pop up flash disappearing; on its own it isn't useful with some of my lenses due to the shadow cast. For triggering strobes I'm more than happy to use a wireless trigger or a speedlite but I often am using a flash while moving around so having a hot shoe and EVF becomes necessary.

Or a sync terminal like Ron suggested so I can slap the camera on my honkin' big Metz handle mount flash and bracket. I did this for fun one day (not using a sync cable, I have an adapter for the hot shoe) ... the petite but serious looking camera looks odd in context but still not completely out of place.

On the other hand, I have used the pop up for fill flash a few times to good effect and likely I'd not have had an accessory flash with me; and an optical slave doesn't take hardly any room in the bag. But unless the camera gets bigger I don't see how they can accommodate a built in EVF and a pop up flash given the limited real estate available on the top plate of the camera.



Feb 04, 2012 at 12:30 AM
Bill Hollinger
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p.2 #9 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


It looks like the D800 sensor will essentially be a full frame version of the sensor used in the NEX7. After using the Ricoh, the version sans AA filter appeals to me. I use the D3s and don’t see a lot of difference in the specs between it and the D4 (other than video), but the 36MP version of the D800 should yield some excellent images. From a French website (http://www.chassimages.com/forum/index.php/topic,146552.0.html),

D800 Sensor
It uses a new sensor 24 x 36 to 36 MP, apparently original and based on Sony Exmor technology, guarantees low noise and wide dynamic range (features "per pixel" should be very close to those of APS-C version of NEX7 24 MP).



Feb 04, 2012 at 07:35 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.2 #10 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Douglas and Ron,
out of the Leica M lenses very few will focus closer than 0.7m but with the Zeiss ZM and the Voigtländer lenses some (most?) will take you down to 0.5m which, given the crop factor, is enough(-ish).

For real close up shooting I have always preferred macro lenses over distortion laden/false facial proportion inducing wide angle lenses and I find that the Hawk's adapters main forte is that every normal lens and telephoto turns into a decent macro. This is great.

For the GXR M there is the Leica R to M adapter which will allow for the Leica Macro 60 and 100mm lenses. Also, there are Pentax K to M adapters and a few others I guess, I haven't been researching it. But possibilities are there. Not as handy as the Hawk's though.

Since I have the A12/50 macro I find that I can rely on that lens for real close ups and that it serves me very well. The A12/28 focuses close and actually is at it's best close up but here we are in the territory where I much prefer the M mount and alt lenses.

As for the EVF on a GXR II, I think that I would be happy with an updated body with articulated LCD and more or less same layout. Ron's idea of a dedicated shoe for the EVF is pretty clever, as long as it does not interfere with a mounted flash. Or maybe an EVF with a flash shoe on the base of the EVF? (A direct coupling shoe.)

Should they manage to squeeze in a very fine EVF I would prefer it at the upper left corner.
I would accept a little heft penalty, but only a little. It would not have to swivel or tilt if the LCD is articulated. If they can't get the Sony OLED EVF or anything it's equal I would prefer to keep on using my VF-2 until they do, and keep it separated from the body.

I can't even remember when I last used the pop up flash but I'd let them keep it if it wasn't interfering with anything else. Choosing between the EVF or pop up flash the EVF would be a given. If I need flash on a regular basis I am happy to invest in one. Ricoh's flash is actually quite good and it exposes very well. The pop up flash is... ...not that great.

I hope there will be some news at the CP+ next weekend.




Feb 04, 2012 at 10:14 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #11 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


kosmoskatten wrote:
Well, that's odd. If I were to use any type of alt lens on the X Pro 1 it would be wide angle lenses, hoping that the sensor would be able to accommodate them without corner smear and color cast.

---<snip>---
kosmoskatten wrote:
I honestly think you might be better off sticking to the X Pro 1 with the dedicated lenses as your separate system and keep your dSLR's for the big honkers and the alt telephoto glass...


Hi Henrik,

It's not unusual for me to swim up stream, so to speak.

I will definitely keep my "big honkers" for much, and probably most of my shooting. I'll use the X-Pro 1 body (bodies) for more specialized and infrequent occassions, but I might also use them for some travel and "day" use at home. I expect the current and announced future XF lenses will do me just fine from the XF 14mm f/2.8 (21mm eqvuiv.) to XF 60mm f/2.4 (90mm equiv.). I will probably not need anything wider, assuming the XF 14/2.8 lives up to expectations. I will probably not need anything longer for shooting intimate gatherings and sacred ceremonies which is why I'm getting the X-Pro 1. OTOH, I'll certainly want something longer if I take only an X-Pro 1 for travel. If the Alt teles that I have in mind aren't practical on the X-Pro 1, I can sell them and buy a new lens cap for my 500/4L IS.

kosmoskatten wrote:
Out of the existing alt platforms I can hardly think of any camera that is less suitable for alt lenses of say... ...35mm focal length and up.


Based on my personal experience, it can't be any worse than an E-P1.


kosmoskatten wrote:
...But, do give it a try and report back to us. I am keen to find out how it goes.


Will do!

Cheers, Jim



Feb 04, 2012 at 10:39 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.2 #12 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Hey Jim,
I am no stranger to swimming upstream myself, hence the GXR.
I haven't tried the EP-1, but I'll take your word for it. I had the Olympus E-3 and shot Leica R glass on it. Great camera, too small a sensor format for me at the time though.



Feb 04, 2012 at 11:06 AM
douglasf13
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p.2 #13 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Hi Henrik,

As long as I'm using aps-c format, the lenses that I use will be the CV 15/4.5, ZM 35/2, and ZM 50/1.5. The CV has a short mfd, but the ZM 35/2 is .7m and the ZM 50/1.5 is .9m. In fact, most 35mm rangefinder lenses have an mfd of .7m. I don't need macro, but there is quite a usable difference between a .7m mfd and a .3m mfd. That's why such a large number of Hawks adapters are used on this forum. It doesn't give you macro-like mfds, but it does give you SLR-like mfds.

Hi Bill,

If I'm not mistaken, the 36mp of the D800 is the same pixel size as the Nex-5n, not the Nex-7.



Feb 04, 2012 at 11:24 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.2 #14 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Hi Douglas, thanks for clarifying that. It seems it is only the wide angle lenses that focus closer then. The Hawk's adapter is brilliant in it's simplicity and I think it is a must have on the NEX cameras.

As a side note I am very pleased with the 15/4.5 and I find I use the ZM18/4 much less, even though the latter is a "better lens", what with distortion and overall sharpness. Considering the price difference the 15/4.5 is a bargain, I love that it is small too. It is my "best bargain" lens so far.

I tried to get the CV35/1.2 v.2, but the getting is kind of slow over here on those lenses and I could not even get an estimate on the delivery (they had listed it as being "in stock" though it wasn't) so I cancelled the order and I am looking elsewhere (abroad) for the lens.



Feb 04, 2012 at 12:40 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #15 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Seems like you can't go wrong with a 35/1.2. Looks like a great lens.


Feb 04, 2012 at 03:05 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.2 #16 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Yes, I hope to have it within a few weeks.



Feb 05, 2012 at 02:46 PM
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