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Archive 2012 · Stupid People are everywhere

  
 
RustyBug
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p.3 #1 · Stupid People are everywhere


jbregar wrote:
Your analogy sucks.


Your explanation of why you dissent with the appropriateness of the analogy suggests that you are a well-thinking individual. As one (i.e. me) who has used numerous "loose" analogies, I recognize the value in pointing out the the disparities so that others might not blindly accept a loose analogy as fully prudent, yet understanding that there does remain a degree (even if small) of usefulness in it.

Presenting alternate points is part of what makes FM a valuable place ... telling a fellow FM'er their efforts "suck" probably doesn't help foster any real value. I get blasted at times for my verbosity, but sometimes ultra-brevity can be a bit more problematic.

Your point at regulation & expense is well noted to answer the question @ why pics vs. not food, but there is something that comes across as "personally attacking" when one addresses an effort or opinion as "suck"ing. I could say "Your reply sucks." ... but rather, I'd suggest it was a bit ultra-brief and lacking in explanation regarding your dissent ... which, btw, most of us welcome dissent ... just not in an 'antagonistic' mode (presumed unintentional, just a bit lacking credence to it's impact).

I'm sure it was meant in a good spirit as an easy way of saying you felt it was a "weak" analogy because of the other factors involved, but "sucks" is a bit disrespectful for most people and was a weak effort that lacked qualification of your (equally welcome) dissent ... which your follow up post did a much better job of conveying.




Jan 30, 2012 at 02:14 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #2 · Stupid People are everywhere


chez wrote:
the amateurs are coming in and cleaning up.


But, if the amateurs are giving it away for free (context of OP) ... how does that make it such that they are "cleaning up"?

To me "cleaning up" is about reaping or restoring value that others left unattended/behind. Amatuers who provide "winning shots" by virtue of either a "Spray & Pray", "Blind Dogs Find a Bone, Now & Then" ... OR ... because the are REALLY TALENTED and have a very professional demeanor and approach are still GIVING AWAY their work ... i.e. they are NOT reaping what others failed to reap (for whatever reason). Instead, they are preventing EVERYONE (themselves included) from reaping the monetary benefits of good work (regardless of methodology to achieve) for a given venue/business/individual/opportunity.

The bottom line is that when the work is being given away for free, (imo) it is more like pouring money down the drain and into the pockets of other businesses/individuals, more so than "cleaning up". If a GWAC is going in and low-balling someone because they don't have overhead of duplicate gear, studio, insurance, taxes, etc. ... I can see where they are "mopping up" some small stuff that the "Pro's" have left unattended ... but that is vastly different from giving it away for free, so that NOBODY reaps anything (except the recipient).

Trying to understand the dynamics of the marketplace is ANYTHING BUT getting on a "High Horse" ... Business 101 includes a SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weakness, Opportunities, Threats) of internal and external factors. Failing to do so is usually considered to be folly and doing so is considered to be savvy. A review of this scenario shows the opportunity to be VERY LOW, and the external threat to be VERY HIGH. This isn't being on a "high horse" ... this is being analytical regarding the realities of the marketplace.

That being said ... could you clarify how it is that you are suggesting people are on their "high horse" for evaluating a business scenario and its potential (and responding to the question of why is it that way) ... and how amateurs who are giving work away for free is "cleaning up" ... and just what are they "cleaning up" ... it sure isn't the money that was left on the table.




Jan 30, 2012 at 02:37 PM
teebat
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p.3 #3 · Stupid People are everywhere


mshi wrote:
there are way too many sluts that don't even want to get paid.


Hmm, a new term? Photosluts?



Jan 30, 2012 at 06:35 PM
marti.g3
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p.3 #4 · Stupid People are everywhere


A newb or amateur looking to progress will jump at any opportunity like that. They don't have the experience to KNOW that it's just a waste of time and nothing will come of it except that they will get some free experience and the possibility of getting some decent images for their usage, The venue will probably use their images for their own promotion but as far as "pay" goes, that will never happen.

Once they experience that a couple of times, their freebies end. But it will continue to occur as up and coming wannabes come on the scene.



Jan 31, 2012 at 09:11 AM
buntaro
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p.3 #5 · Stupid People are everywhere


"there are way too many sluts that don't even want to get paid. "

You mean people who take photos for the joy of it? And like to share their work with people?

It's unfortunate for professional photographers, the ones who spent years learning the craft, but digital has enabled a lot of people to do pretty high level work without a ton of experience.
As opposed to controlling all the variables involved in taking a good shot in any situation they can just- *shoot*, "that's no good",delete.... *shoot*, "that's no good",delete...., etc. making minor adjustments until they get something they like.

And they don't end up spending a small fortune on film, developing etc.

It's not entirely unlike when photography eclipsed painting as the means of portraying the visual world. You can take a good photo of a person, could you paint their portrait?

Time marches on.



Jan 31, 2012 at 09:35 AM
Eyeball
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p.3 #6 · Stupid People are everywhere


I actually think there are quite a few similarities between the photography and restaurant industries right now. You just have to look at it in a slightly different way.

While there aren't many restaurants giving food away free, there are many with kitchen staff at minimum wage (or perhaps below minimum wage if using illegal immigrants). The long hours and hard work make these positions about as close to free as you can get. Many start with dreams of being a star chef with their own restaurant but the reality is that running an actual restaurant business involves a lot more than being able to reproduce one of Emeril's recipes from the Food Channel. Still, the high-turnover in these jobs is not enough to raise salaries; the lower barrier-to-entry in terms of education and experience means there is always a cheap labor supply available. Yep, I'd say there are a lot of similarities.

Journalism is another area that has similarities. Barrier-to-entry is again low and there are many pseudo-news-sites that expect writers to contribute free in exchange for the experience and recognition.

Other than the occasional bitch-over-a-beer though, I don't see much value in complaining about it. The situation is not going to change anytime soon. Better to put energies into marketing, considering other niches of photography, or even beginning the study of another craft if photography isn't doing it for you business-wise.



Jan 31, 2012 at 10:08 AM
Skarkowtsky
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p.3 #7 · Stupid People are everywhere


I think I subscribe to Buntaro's post. The clients seeking free work usually end up with photographs that reflect that 'rate'. Sometimes, they're even pleased with what's delivered. Of course, a trained eye can see all the shortcomings of the photographs, but the amateur who shot them, and the business who wanted them are pleased. More often than not, said clients are smaller or small business, and not likely to have commercial relationships with the well-established pros anyway. And if there does exist an amateur out there that can shoot professionally, but isn't taking the next step, and constantly lowballing, that's his or her problem for getting cheated out of compensation. Not yours. Eventually, it won't be economical for that person, and they'll quit.

The well-established pros tend to have relationships with large clients, AD's, agencies, publishers, corporations and such, and are paid appropriately. They aren't working for little to no pay. Just ask yourselves. Have you? If so, and you're complaining about it, it's your fault for having done so. It's all relevant, from the mom & pop getting freebies from enthusiasts, to the top-tier clients that pay pros handsomely for a photograph.

There's constant bitching about amateurs taking work away from the industry, when in reality, they're just snatching up the small jobs that pros hardly touched in the 'glory' days of past. I'm assistant to a large studio with a revolving staff of full-time and freelance photographers, and all their stories come in and out with them.

None of them are complaining about losing jobs. None. Because their caliber of work, and target audience of clients is something most amateurs cannot touch. Maybe I'm just fortunate enough to work with the few remaining photographers that have been 'lucky' enough to find work. I think not. Maybe these guys just stay on top of their game and also ensure that their portfolios land in front of the right people.

I've yet to see an amateur photographer land a job for a major client. I've yet to see it run in the major magazines, on billboards and the like. What I have seen is a leap in technology that makes it easier for anyone to shoot until they get something they believe is good. However, that doesn't mean it actually is good. More often than not, those types fo jobs are staffed by people with an understanding of what a photograph should be, and the amateurs are quickly phased out. I'm referring to the jobs that allow you make a comfortable living in this game.

I see a lot of people shaking in their boots and pointing fingers, instead of just focusing on their craft. Some people should spend this much time in their studio, staying ahead of the curve. Then, whatever the amateurs are up to won't make a lick of difference.

The same outcry in the design world happened 10 years ago when Photoshop, of all things (not even the right software for 2/3rds of designing) became so accessible. Guess what--the amateurs have since been phased out. And the ones who survived and are still setting type in Photoshop aren't landing freelance gigs with Landor or Pentagram, they're working small time.

If it's a case of clients saying they aren't paying, walk away. Return with your portfolio, and let them see the difference in quality. If they still refuse to pay for photographs and seek freebies....FIND OTHER CLIENTS. Making a living in commercial art is a constant effort on your part. Competition is fierce. Or did some of you forget this? The rules have not changed in 40 years.

I'm tired of reading all the hissy fits. If some of you really are pros, let it go, and work. The jobs are out there for the taking.




Jan 31, 2012 at 10:23 AM
chez
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p.3 #8 · Stupid People are everywhere


RustyBug wrote:
But, if the amateurs are giving it away for free (context of OP) ... how does that make it such that they are "cleaning up"?

To me "cleaning up" is about reaping or restoring value that others left unattended/behind. Amatuers who provide "winning shots" by virtue of either a "Spray & Pray", "Blind Dogs Find a Bone, Now & Then" ... OR ... because the are REALLY TALENTED and have a very professional demeanor and approach are still GIVING AWAY their work ... i.e. they are NOT reaping what others failed to reap (for whatever reason). Instead, they are preventing
...Show more

The high horse I am talking about is related to statements like "spray and pray" and "Blind Dogs Find a Bone, Now & Then", implying someone who just shoots for the enjoyment of it all is not a "real photographer" and that the pros are the only ones that can handle the job. Unfortunately, there are more photographers everyday who are just as capable, in fact more capable, than the pros to get the photo, and who have zero interest in monetary compensation. Just giving access to an event is all the reward that is required.

I shot a weekend music festival this past summer for 'gasp' free, and had a great time, took many photos, let the promoters have full use of the photos...not a problem with me. In return I got a full access pass, front stage, back stage and even on stage as well as the VIP tents. That is all the reward I needed. Did not require any money for compensation. Was happy with just having the experience. And guess what, I got some truly fantastic photos. Am I stupid for doing this...I did not feel it. I think we had a win-win situation where both parties got something from the weekend. Did I take away some pro's revenue...I don't know, and in fact don't really care. I just worry about myself and others have to worry about themselves.





Jan 31, 2012 at 04:38 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #9 · Stupid People are everywhere


chez wrote:
I don't know, and in fact don't really care. I just worry about myself and others have to worry about themselves.


Yet, you slam the OP for trying to assess his scenario, and trying to understand the world he was trying to operate in as being "high horsed" and accuse the entire FM membership of being copyright violators ...

So, if others were volunteering to do your job for free and your employer decided that you should work for free also just like them ... you'd say "Sure, sounds like a fun time." without trying to understand why he expects you to work for free ... or assessing whether or not you should continue to do business with him.

I'm not slamming amateurs ... been there done that, know some really good ones, know there are even greater ones out there that I've never met. THE POINT is that as long as there are people giving stuff away for free incessantly, it presents an environment that diminishes the opportunity to do so for profitability ... it's not rocket science.

Most amateurs aren't giving stuff away for free to Ad Agency's because their work isn't up to the criteria an Agency requires, so there is very little/no threat from amateurs in that genre. Change genre's to the OP's realm and the criteria that the client will accept changes, along with the relative influence of others giving away work for free.

It is reasonable and fair to assess why someone would expect you to work for free ... that's not being "high horsed" ... it's being objective. Realizing that potential clients (for a given genre, locale, venue, etc.) are getting what they need for free (and have a high probability to continue to do so), means that there isn't much opportunity for business there ... low "O", high "T" = "Pass" (imo).

Trying to sell dictionary's and encyclopedia's door to door isn't something we see much of these days ... the need for information hasn't changed, but the ability for family's to get it without paying $$$ for a set of books has. Time for a revised game plan, the opportunity has changed, the competition has changed (i.e. internet) and its likely not going to revert. So, it is with those areas where people are giving there pics away for free ... reduced "O", high "T" ... and likely not to change since technology isn't going to slam itself in reverse just so we can make a buck.






Edited on Jan 31, 2012 at 06:14 PM · View previous versions



Jan 31, 2012 at 05:58 PM
chez
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p.3 #10 · Stupid People are everywhere


RustyBug wrote:
Yet, you slam the OP for trying to assess his scenario, and trying to understand the world he has to operate in as being "high horsed" and accuse the entire FM membership of being copyright violators ...

So, if others were volunteering to do your job for free and your employer decided that you should work for free also just like them ... you'd say "Sure, sounds like a fun time." without trying to understand why he expects you to work for free ... or assessing whether or not you should continue to do business with him.

I'm not slamming amateurs
...Show more

Rusty...it is not the act of assessing their industry and trying to understand how things are evolving that I am talking about. It is the language along with the attitude involved. Phrases such as

"spray and pray"
"Even a blind acorn finds a hog occasionally.."

Or even the title of this thread, "Stupid people are everywhere"

come across as greater than thou...putting down photographers that don't need to be compensated with money.

And by the way...if someone is willing to come do my job for free, I'll gladly move on. I just don't see anyone lining up like I see a bunch of wannabees with cameras around their necks trying to get into an event so they can shoot for free. That is just life. No one wants to manage multiple-million dollar high tech projects just for the fun of it.



Jan 31, 2012 at 06:12 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #11 · Stupid People are everywhere


chez wrote:
No one wants to manage multiple-million dollar high tech projects just for the fun of it.


That's because they have put in a termendous amount of time, energy, training and experience getting to that level of competency to do so ... and just like amateur @ Ad Agency work, where push button technology advancements don't replace the need for excellent lighting control (not to be confused with exposure), and a myriad of other elements that require experience and "thought", people aren't giving it away at THAT level, because they don't have it to give away ... and a "push button here" solution doesn't exist for them to compensate with. Thus, laws of supply and demand dictate regarding the value a client puts on the work to be performed.

Low level work that can be adequately accomplished by innumerous individuals will always be considered of lesser value.

Gotcha @ phrasing sensitivity ... but the objectivity of the reality still holds valid. I don't think the OP was putting down people doing work for free, so much as ... a businessman requests him to do some work for him, and expects him to do it for free.

Stupid may not be the most appropriate word, but the intense frustration of rude, ignorant and disrespectful attitudes that yet another "businessman" projected toward the OP puts the shoe on the other foot just a bit. Maybe more like "Does this guy think I'm Stupid to do this"?

I'm good with barter and quid pro quo, etc. but, to me there is just something wrong when someone expects you to pay them for their work, but they refuse to even consider compensating you for your work or acknowledging your expenses ... but hey, that's just me.


Edited on Feb 01, 2012 at 12:13 AM · View previous versions



Jan 31, 2012 at 06:23 PM
oldrattler
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p.3 #12 · Stupid People are everywhere


chez wrote:
Rusty...it is not the act of assessing their industry and trying to understand how things are evolving that I am talking about. It is the language along with the attitude involved. Phrases such as

"spray and pray"
"Even a blind acorn finds a hog occasionally.."

Or even the title of this thread, "Stupid people are everywhere"

come across as greater than thou...putting down photographers that don't need to be compensated with money.

And by the way...if someone is willing to come do my job for free, I'll gladly move on. I just don't see anyone lining up like I see a bunch of wannabees
...Show more

I am sorry, but you totally do not have a clue as to what I am talking about.. If I called you and ask you specifically to drive 5 hours, shoot for 4-6 hours then turn over all your images for a "Thank you" and you are willing, then you are just a far better man than I.. The cost of fuel, meals, motels, wear and tear on equipment, and your time must be worth something.. As for the comments you take exception to, they are common terms used all over the USA for digital shooting... Could the phrase "high horse" be construed as negative, yes.. "Holier than thou" at what point in time did I ever say that.. I commend you on working for free; I humble myself before you willingness to give away what you have, but not everybody is in that shape.., Just for the record I give away far more images than I sell.. I have done 3 weddings for relatives that can not afford a "Pro".. but give a total stranger a total day free so he can profit off it is too much..



Jan 31, 2012 at 11:55 PM
wbunnell
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p.3 #13 · Stupid People are everywhere


buntaro wrote:
but digital has enabled a lot of people to do pretty high level work without a ton of experience.


I'm not implying this about you so dont take it like that.

BUT, I do disagree with that statement. With what I see out there I think digital has allowed a lot of people to turn out a lot of crap but more quickly and cheaply. They can call themselves a professional but if they dont have the skill it doesn't matter what camera is in their hand. Obviously technology has helped somewhat. It has not helped to the degree it can take someone with limited experience and have them turn out an image comparable to a skilled photographer.

The "shoot, dont like, delete" scenario you mention may work with static subjects but try to shoot something like sports, concerts, weddings, etc and you better be able to nail it first time or adjust very quickly. Otherwise you are not going to get the job done.

I also think that its not so much that these glut of "professional" photographers have gotten much better but rather than most customers have lowered their standards as to what is acceptable. Especially when its free or dirt cheap.


Edited on Feb 01, 2012 at 12:29 AM · View previous versions



Feb 01, 2012 at 12:14 AM
oldrattler
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p.3 #14 · Stupid People are everywhere


RustyBug wrote:
That's because they have put in a termendous amount of time, energy, training and experience getting to that level of competency to do so ... and just like amateur @ Ad Agency work, where push button technology advancements don't replace the need for excellent lighting control (not to be confused with exposure), and a myriad of other elements that require experience and "thought", people aren't up giving it away at THAT level, because they don't have it to give away ... and a "push button here" solution doesn't exist. Thus, laws of supply and demand dictate regarding the value a
...Show more

The area we live in is theoretically closed to the amateur shooter.. by this I mean the local arenas, venues, ballparks, etc. do not allow shooting unless you are approved by management.. I have been attempting to get permission to shoot the rodeo for 4 years and the answer is still no.. I frequently travel 2-3 hours to do a job and not once have I been ask to do it for nothing.. On the opposite foot I frequently give them far more then they are paying for because I am retired and do not have a major overhead.. Working with someone, bartering, bantering, wheeling & dealing is the way they do things around here.. There is always give & take.. Unfortunately this individual was all take.. No room for discussion, my way or the highway.. Does that make him stupid, no.. That is good business.. If I spend hundreds of dollars and giggle & grin as I turn over the images does that make me stupid.. In my opinion, yes.. because that is not good business.. My intent was not to evoke a war over whether I am crass, insensitive, demeaning, hateful because I could be.. I simply can not understand how our society has developed an attitude that we are owed something for nothing.. Maybe I am old & past understanding, but I could never bring myself to do this.. It is OK to give stuff away willingly, but not because somebody says you have to..



Feb 01, 2012 at 12:19 AM
chez
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p.3 #15 · Stupid People are everywhere


oldrattler wrote:
The area we live in is theoretically closed to the amateur shooter.. by this I mean the local arenas, venues, ballparks, etc. do not allow shooting unless you are approved by management.. I have been attempting to get permission to shoot the rodeo for 4 years and the answer is still no.. I frequently travel 2-3 hours to do a job and not once have I been ask to do it for nothing.. On the opposite foot I frequently give them far more then they are paying for because I am retired and do not have a major overhead..
...Show more

In my case, I did not shoot the concert and give away the images for nothing. I got a full access pass in return for the images. To e, that was a fair price. The same might be for others that want to shoot a rodeo. They might make a deal which allows them access to the rodeo, prime locations, in return for the images.

Not all compensation boils down to money. I was very satisfied with my compensation.



Feb 01, 2012 at 12:26 AM
oldrattler
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p.3 #16 · Stupid People are everywhere


chez wrote:
In my case, I did not shoot the concert and give away the images for nothing. I got a full access pass in return for the images. To e, that was a fair price. The same might be for others that want to shoot a rodeo. They might make a deal which allows them access to the rodeo, prime locations, in return for the images.

Not all compensation boils down to money. I was very satisfied with my compensation.


Compensation for a father could be a smile from his children; A son / co-worker could be elated over "job well done".. Others might be compensated physically, emotionally, spiritually, or monetarily.. In all things there is a "risk / return ratio".. If I do this, or that, what could happen.. We all like to think we are doing the best we can.. But who judges whether we made the right decisions.. I can not tell you what would be a worthy compensation because I do not know your situation.. Neither can another rationalize / theorize what would satisfy me.. Is it money, a smile, a kiss, a promise, handshake, recognition... Yes, dependent upon the situation..



Feb 01, 2012 at 12:46 AM
rprouty
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p.3 #17 · Stupid People are everywhere


Photography has changed for ever and it ain't gonna go back to where it was before.
Digital, MPix, Whitehouse, etc has put many professionals out of business and it's going to get worse. Talk to wildlife photographers who used to make big bucks and ask them how they're doing now. Ask Tom Mangelson how many of his galleries (stores) have closed in the last couple of years.
I'm an average photographer but I get inquiries from publications letting me know if they can use one of my images they will give me photo credit. I've never accepted because the photography my wife and I do is for our personal enjoyment and isn't for sale or give away.

http://www.pbase.com/rprouty/land






Feb 01, 2012 at 09:35 AM
oldrattler
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p.3 #18 · Stupid People are everywhere


rprouty wrote:
Photography has changed for ever and it ain't gonna go back to where it was before.
Digital, MPix, Whitehouse, etc has put many professionals out of business and it's going to get worse. Talk to wildlife photographers who used to make big bucks and ask them how they're doing now. Ask Tom Mangelson how many of his galleries (stores) have closed in the last couple of years.
I'm an average photographer but I get inquiries from publications letting me know if they can use one of my images they will give me photo credit. I've never accepted because the photography my
...Show more

Since retiring we seldom accept photo "jobs", but we frequently are ask by friends, or family, to take some images for them.. We have never refused as long as their are no time constraints, or logistical nightmares.. But I also seem to be running into more & more business' asking for "work for recognition".. At this point in the game I do not need, or want, recognition.. We post images for advice on improvement.. After-all, even "old dogs" can learn.. Thank you for joining in...



Feb 01, 2012 at 10:25 AM
marti.g3
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p.3 #19 · Stupid People are everywhere


"I also think that its not so much that these glut of "professional" photographers have gotten much better but rather than most customers have lowered their standards as to what is acceptable. Especially when its free or dirt cheap."

Bingo ! Anyone who gets something for free isn't going to complain about it. Expectations have been lowered and the receiving parties will put up with an inferior prodcut.



Feb 01, 2012 at 05:13 PM
oldrattler
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p.3 #20 · Stupid People are everywhere


marti.g3 wrote:
"I also think that its not so much that these glut of "professional" photographers have gotten much better but rather than most customers have lowered their standards as to what is acceptable. Especially when its free or dirt cheap."

Bingo ! Anyone who gets something for free isn't going to complain about it. Expectations have been lowered and the receiving parties will put up with an inferior prodcut.


I believe you are correct, although I would not go as far as saying inferior, especially regarding my work.. I will say that they probably will not spend as much time trying to get exactly what the customer wants, or in PP.. Thank God I am from the film days as digital has, IMO, opened a venue that allows a lot more photographers to reach a level of competence sooner.. Thereby, increasing the competition..



Feb 01, 2012 at 07:10 PM
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