I was not happy when I got my 7D - it was noisy. I learned how to adjust my PP specifically for the 7D and suddenly was/is great. Canon did their job but it required that I do mine to realize the benefit. Some people may not be happy doing the extra work of setting up different default conversions or work only in JPEG. If so, then perhaps it is not the camera for you.
BTW... For perspective, go back and look at some Ektachrome 400 images. Is the 7D the noise "leader?" No. Is it very, very good? Yes.
What OwlsEyes, Robert, Hrow, Imagemaster et al have said.
There's so much iredeemable crap written about the 7D (not least by people who should know better, given the number of times their trolling on the subject has been slapped down - yes EB, I mean you) that I'm not even going to dignify this thread with more proof of the utter lie that the 7D is a noisy camera.
But I will say to the OP that if he cares to use the search facility, he'll find umpteen similar threads, and in many of them I've posted 7D images at pretty much any ISO you care to mention from 400 to 12800, all of which absolutely give the lie to the notion that the 7D is noisy - it's fantastic for an APS-C camera, and easily a match for the "miracle" Nikon D7000 and Pentax K-5 croppers.
As Hrow succinctly puts it:
Is the 7D the noise "leader?" No. Is it very, very good? Yes
For the avoidance of any doubt, at the image level I've proven to my own satisfaction - and to the satisfaction of a lot of photographers whose opinions I respect and value - that the 7D is only marginally bested by the Nikon D700; but the Canon gives you waaay more detail.
It easily matches the 1D Mk III too.
And it doesn't "need" Lr for this to be true (although I generally reach for Lr first at 3200 ISO and over). All it needs for stunning high ISO results is this:
Don't capture sharpen on conversion;
apply sharpening selectively in PP.
It's that simple - and it really is simple: open the converted file in Photoshop or other editor with layers; apply a dup layer; sharpen; use the eraser "brush" to remove the sharpening from where it's not needed; flatten.
This is the same technique I've used since my 30D days, so it's not a "burden" that is uniquely necessary in order to make the 7D usable - use a big eraser brush size and it adds a few tens of seconds at most to the workflow.
If this is too much effort, I despair: but I also know that the quality of our results is in our own hands.
keithreeder wrote:
Don't capture sharpen on conversion;
apply sharpening selectively in PP
Keith, just to make sure I understand, you are saying that in Adobe Camera Raw zero out all the sharpening sliders and leave the noise reduction sliders at their default values. Then in Photoshop only apply sharpening to the detail areas.
Is that correct? Thanks.
Edit: I revisited my ISO 800 pigeon image from above. My ACR uses zero luminance NR and 25 color as default. If I use this and Keith's suggestion above there is too much noise in the detail areas (the pigeon) to allow proper handling in PS. I found the best I could achieve was to use ACR sharpening of 25 amount, 0.5 radius, 25 detail, and 0 masking; and NR of 25 luminance and 25 color. Then in PS (Elements 9) select the pigeon and his branch and use the sharpen filter at 150 level and 0.3 radius. Then inverse the selection and use the reduce noise filter to blur the noise out of the background which is quite out of focus and simple to do - like sky. I find PSEs noise tool to be pretty good, but I don't know how it compares to Lightroom or one of the 3rd party noise tools. My pigeon ended up looking pretty good. I didn't capture it with the bitingly sharp focus of Imagemaster's birds, but I think its better than my 40D could have done in those circumstances.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Keith, just to make sure I understand, you are saying that in Adobe Camera Raw zero out all the sharpening sliders and leave the noise reduction sliders at their default values. Then in Photoshop only apply sharpening to the detail areas.
Is that correct? Thanks.
Pretty much . But if you use LR you can just set up a brush to sharpen and sharpen the bits you want.
I found that with both my 40D and 1D2n that they get a tad unsightly at higher ISO I could nr them and sharpen using the brush to pretty good effect.
BrianO wrote:
It's not what you said; it's how you said it.
I agree, Brian.
I'm fairly new around here but in my short time I have noticed that he seems quite grumpy most of the time. Its not what is said but rather how it is said, whuch is usually condescending in nature. Being new I never wanted to say anything and be "that guy that just showed up and thinks he belongs", but I can +1 on top of your comment
Robert, dont take offense, I know you dont care what others think, just lighten up and smile homie
Back on topic:
Being a former owner of the 7D, the first thing I noticed after nice and robust it was...is how damn noisy the files were. At first I thought it was due to the new higher resolution screen which was allowing me to see more pixels of something of the sort...but nope. It was noisy and is now gone. I love my 5D. Im a rookie though so whadueyeno.
jorkata wrote:
Hmm, umpteen threads about the 7D noise? Reminds me of the umpteen 1DIII focusing threads back in the day .
So currently Canon offers 4 bodies with this 18 MP sensor and 3 bodies all costing at least $1000 more (MSRP) that use some other sensor. I don't see threads on T2i or 60D noise. Do those users not do RAW or don't they participate in this forum, or is the 7D somehow worse at processing this sensor?
Firstly, welcome to FM.
Secondly, don't worry about being the new guy, and being afraid to say anything. Speak your mind, that's what these forums are for.
Lastly, if you see something stupid or ridiculous being said, you really don't need to coddle them or hold their hand, all while letting them know what they are saying is ridiculous.
If you look most of my "grumpy" comments are about people saying ridiculous comments about gear, that most of the community knows is bull.
Further evidence of this is that I seemed to have said the same thing that a lot of people were thinking.
Like I said, I'm not a malicious guy at all. I'm not better than anyone or anything. I put my pants on the same way as everyone else, one leg at a time.
Maybe you miss it because you're new here, but the bottom line is, the 7d has a lot of vitriol spilled about it, and a lot of people know it is bull. Especially when you can see photos like imagemaster posts.misternikko wrote:
I agree, Brian.
I'm fairly new around here but in my short time I have noticed that he seems quite grumpy most of the time. Its not what is said but rather how it is said, whuch is usually condescending in nature. Being new I never wanted to say anything and be "that guy that just showed up and thinks he belongs", but I can +1 on top of your comment
Robert, dont take offense, I know you dont care what others think, just lighten up and smile homie
Back on topic:
Being a former owner of the 7D, the first thing I noticed after nice and robust it was...is how damn noisy the files were. At first I thought it was due to the new higher resolution screen which was allowing me to see more pixels of something of the sort...but nope. It was noisy and is now gone. I love my 5D. Im a rookie though so whadueyeno....Show more →
Let them be ridiculous, Robert. People always will be.
I was more concerned about you being chipper and happy about being alive and taking part in this great hobby/career of photography.
I don't know you but always feel like you need a hug, thas all (no homo lol)
Im not that new around here, I just wanted to soften up the message a tad because I really wasnt trying to be offensive at all. I knew all the "stories" about the 7D before I bought mine back in 2009 and after getting it, really didnt like it that much. The files from FF, to me at least, are a lot cleaner. The AF does suck sometimes, but id pick up a 1 series before ever going back to the 7D esp since its a cropper and I dont do birds or need the reach/frame rate.
Do you own a 1 series? I'm thinking of picking up a 1Ds II as my back up which may just become my first shooter sticking the 5D back in the bag
Some of us just decided the 7D was not worth all the post processing required to reduce noise.
We chose other cameras that do not require all the post processing.
I am sure the 7D is fine for those who enjoy the post processing work.
jorkata wrote:
Hmm, umpteen threads about the 7D noise? Reminds me of the umpteen 1DIII focusing threads back in the day .
Yeah, I am sure if you had one or three of the cameras that wouldn't focus you'd feel the same way. Perhaps going thru 3 bodies and sending them to Canon six times is OK with you but I was mildly put off by the experience. Totally different situation.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
So currently Canon offers 4 bodies with this 18 MP sensor and 3 bodies all costing at least $1000 more (MSRP) that use some other sensor. I don't see threads on T2i or 60D noise. Do those users not do RAW or don't they participate in this forum, or is the 7D somehow worse at processing this sensor?
All 4 bodies are equally noisy.
However, there are different expectations for the single-digit models (xD) vs the multi-digit models (xxD and xxxD).
Many consider the 7D first before deciding to spend more on the 5DII, whereas nobody is seriously pondering whether they should get a T3i or a 5DII.
My point was that if there are umpteen forum threads about a potential issue, there's a very good chance that this issue is real.
And those umpteen users that had the issue are likely not making things up.
abqnmusa wrote:
Some of us just decided the 7D was not worth all the post processing required to reduce noise.
We chose other cameras that do not require all the post processing.
I am sure the 7D is fine for those who enjoy the post processing work.
Batched in LR it takes no real time at all. In PS it's a couple of mouse clicks and all of about 20 secs. If you aren't willing to do some serious PP then you are missing out on a lot of the potential of your images. If you are doing serious PP, then the NR for 7D is a truly minor component.
If it is a purist issue then I would ask you to consider that very unlikely that there is one person here that could make the same quality of print from an Adams, Tice, or Bullock negative that they could. All the B&W greats were masters of manipulation. Their tools were just different.
PS. I spend a LOT less time doing 7D noise reduction than I do on spotting images from my 1DsMkIII and I think that is probably true of everyone who owns both cameras.
jorkata wrote:
...Many consider the 7D first before deciding to spend more on the 5DII, whereas nobody is seriously pondering whether they should get a T3i or a 5DII.
abqnmusa wrote:
Some of us just decided the 7D was not worth all the post processing required to reduce noise.
We chose other cameras that do not require all the post processing.
I am sure the 7D is fine for those who enjoy the post processing work.
I'm probably going to get told I'm being condescending if I word this the way I would've a few days ago...so I'll respond in a much more pc fashion lol.
I own several canon cameras. I find that I can do by and large the same post processing on all of my files. I do not feel that moving a luminance noise slider is all that much more work...seeing as how when I shoot my one series cameras I've got to do that too.
The other way I'd say it is,
Yeah...because moving a slider is detrimental to my life.
misternikko wrote:
Let them be ridiculous, Robert. People always will be.
I was more concerned about you being chipper and happy about being alive and taking part in this great hobby/career of photography.
I don't know you but always feel like you need a hug, thas all (no homo lol)
Im not that new around here, I just wanted to soften up the message a tad because I really wasnt trying to be offensive at all. I knew all the "stories" about the 7D before I bought mine back in 2009 and after getting it, really didnt like it that much. The files from FF, to me at least, are a lot cleaner. The AF does suck sometimes, but id pick up a 1 series before ever going back to the 7D esp since its a cropper and I dont do birds or need the reach/frame rate.
Do you own a 1 series? I'm thinking of picking up a 1Ds II as my back up which may just become my first shooter sticking the 5D back in the bag ...Show more →
You will fall in love with a 1ds2, and more than likely want/lust after a 1ds3 haha.
Something special about the 1 series canon cameras.
Yes, I do post processing now and improve the images. I currently use 5D II, and 40D as backup.
I do not see the same noise with 5D II -- it is much cleaner.
The 18 MP sensor of the 7D does have advantages for bird photography. The long lenses have become so expensive that it makes the 7D appealing again.
jorkata wrote:
All 4 bodies are equally noisy.
However, there are different expectations for the single-digit models (xD) vs the multi-digit models (xxD and xxxD).
Many consider the 7D first before deciding to spend more on the 5DII, whereas nobody is seriously pondering whether they should get a T3i or a 5DII.
I upgraded to the 7D from from a 50D Fall 2009 and was amazed at how much better the 7D handled and suppressed noise, especially in skies (the 50D suffered patterned artifacts whereas the 7D has easy to remove grain-like noise). No it wasn't as good as my 5D or 5D2 at ISO 1600 but for its day it was the best. So, 2 years later, the 7D CMOS is showing its age and, plus, user expectations and monitor size have grown considerably. I'm sure a 7D2 is waiting in the wings but still the 7D is the best focusing and noise handling APS-C camera I have owned, and I've owned most of them since the 10D. And like Robert mentions, a few extra seconds tweaking 7D files in PP is no biggie.
