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Archive 2011 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way diffe...

  
 
Zaitz
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p.2 #1 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Wickerprints responses are spot on, imo.


chadbro wrote:
Which ultimately leads me to my next question that I don't think is total thread drift.

With the evolution of software and bracketing, are we simply chasing a end-all, be-all look to a photograph? That is to say, I see a lot of helpful, and in most cases, by most posters, welcome'd critique that seemingly pushes folks, of many talent levels, towards a specific look?

What I mean is, while the feedback given is certainly the POV of the poster, just as the photo presented is the POV of the original poster, there is an awful lot of critique expressing a certain
...Show more
I don't think everyone will ever come close to agreeing on an end-all be all look to photographs in general and I think that is pretty clear. There are just way too many differing opinions on what is good. There may be a general consensus on this forum when reading critiques that cite the same suggestions but I think once a photographer comes into his own he will have a strong enough conviction in his own mind on what is right and develop a style that is somewhat distinctive. Maybe not truly unique but distinctive against the vast majority of photographs taken everyday.

I really don't think a specific end look is what those giving the critiques are trying to push the photographer towards. Everyone will have a slightly different style and small suggestions like raising the shadows a bit isn't going to change that, imo. Every scene is different as well. I have no problem limiting detail in the shadows if I feel it will benefit the photo.

chadbro wrote:
I do appreciate the exactness in your reply to my observation of Karel's post. I still feel that as a "measuring stick", the fact that the manual blender having experienced the scene has a better opportunity to re-create the scene than the optimization of a software. In that sense, I can appreciate that answer as a motivating factor in choosing one method over the other. I would also agree that a pre-determined software like exposure fusion has the same inherent issues/limitations as an HDR software.

With our knowledge of post-processing techniques, are we involuntarily pre-disposed to see what could have been
...Show more

It definitely didn't seem to limit Ansel's appreciation of what is. You can see quotes throughout all of his books for many varying scenes on how beautiful it was. But then he will also say that he envisioned the final print as 'stronger' and did what was necessary to achieve his vision of the scene. Unless you aren't talking about a live scene but rather a photo - a 'plain' photo that tried to capture 'what is'. I don't photograph to try and recreate what is. I would find that a waste of time and boring and leaving little in the way of artistic interpretation of the scene. I try to create a photograph using whatever tools necessary to achieve my vision of a given scene and hopefully with a somewhat unique outcome. But I will never limit myself to trying to replicate 'reality' as my eye saw it. I still appreciate what is, just not in my photos.




Nov 20, 2011 at 04:10 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #2 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Zaitz wrote, responding to the following:


This brings up an interesting subject and one that seems to afflict landscape photography discussions more than it does discussions of other types of photography, namely this notion that a photograph "captures" what is "real" and that this can and should be its goal - and, by extension, anything that "manipulates" that "real" thing is somehow wrong and should be called out.

There is very little support anywhere for that idea, at least in the pure form that some seem to think it might have. Virtually every landscape photographer has said or will tell you today and shows through his or her own work that the idea of a photograph as an objective record of "what was there" is both impossible and undesirable. "Recording" the objective, physical nature of the subject - whatever the heck that even is - is almost completely missing the point.

First, it is impossible. If we assume that the landscape that we see when in its actual presence at the time of the exposure is an objective and real thing, it is obvious that the camera cannot accurately capture that thing. There is a whole list of reasons for this to be the case, and it could include the following and more:

  1. The reality of the place is a continuum of light and seasons and atmosphere and more, yet the photograph only "captures" a tiny slice of the continuum that defines that subject.
  2. The camera cannot record all of the elements that define the nature of that subject - not the movement of air, the smell, the warmth of the sun, the exertion required (or not) to be there, and much more.
  3. The camera cannot "see" the scene the same way that our visual system does - which is the primary subject of this thread. I'll just point out that bright clouds don't blow out and shadows are not blocked and leaves don't blur in the wind when we use our visual system to view them directly.
  4. The photographer's most basic choices "edit" and transform the reality of the scene in important ways: where to place the camera, when to click the shutter, what to include/exclude from the scene, focal length, whether aperture choices make everything in focus or are selective, what the shutter speed does to moving elements of the scene, and much more.
  5. Other things that would make this list too long for this thread… ;-)

Second, even if it were possible it would be undesirable.

Let's use Adams as an example. What moves many about his photographs is not the extent to which they are objectively "real" - fundamentally, they are not real. (The last time I checked, the world was not black and white.) What sets his work apart is the way that he used the tools at hand to interpret (not literally reproduce) the subjects of his photographs and the resulting personality and point of view that are expressed in his work. In other words, the literal subjects were, arguably, primarily a means for Adams to share his point of view and his passions through his photographs. In the end, the photographs tell us more about Adams than they tell us about his subjects. (I used Adams here because he is most likely to be known to all reading the thread, but virtually any other "landscape" photographer's work would serve as well.)

To loop back to the thread, virtually all serious landscape (and other) photographers understand that it is an essentially unquestioned truth that photographs do not and cannot "accurately" portray the real subject, that they inherently (and aren't we glad!) express a point of view, and that the notion of a pure "unmanipulated" "capture" is a strange and impossible concept. (Yet, for reasons that I won't explore here, it seems to persist...)

This means that things are complicated. There is no "right" mode of expression, no "right" or wrong techniques, and no "right" type or amount of modification of a photograph in post. It is all relative and subjective. Some who like to imagine that a world of absolutes would simplify things find this difficult to understand and accept. Wouldn't it be simpler if we could just declare that HDR or exposure blending or adding saturation or using curves or cloning out a spot were "wrong" because they were manipulations of the original "truth" of the scene and dismiss them as being objectively wrong or even dishonest, unethical, or immoral? But we can't, if for no other reason than once you start down that absolutist road you would have to exclude most or arguably even all photography.

In the end it is about judgment and taste and the power of the photographer's personal expression - and not simply an accounting of which techniques were used. Perhaps the least important thing about a photograph is how it was made.

Dan

Edited on Nov 20, 2011 at 01:07 PM · View previous versions



Nov 20, 2011 at 10:38 AM
Zaitz
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p.2 #3 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Agreed^.


Nov 20, 2011 at 11:22 AM
chadbro
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p.2 #4 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


I like the conversation that has come from this thread. I wouldn't say I'm "convinced", rather, enlightened regarding the philosophies of many photographers that I have come to admire the work of on this forum.

At one point, I needed to be more exacting in my questions. For example, when I posed the question,

With our knowledge of post-processing techniques, are we involuntarily pre-disposed to see what could have been rather than what is? Does that limit our ability to appreciate the "what is"?

I was referring more to the finished product. Rather than the conversation regarding the real-ness of photography, it was more along the lines of, can we appreciate a photo for the decisions made in the processing or are ultimately tainted by our knowledge of processing so we involuntarily wish to "bring out more in the shadows"?

But ultimately that doesn't matter. If the artistic and processing decisions that are made are effective, the photograph will be effective.

Dan makes many good points in his last post about the inability to show the "real-ness". Not dissimilar from points made in Galen Rowell's Inner Game of Outdoor Photography.

I also appreciate Zaitz's thoughts on beauty and real-ness

You can see quotes throughout all of his [Adams] books for many varying scenes on how beautiful it was. But then he will also say that he envisioned the final print as 'stronger' and did what was necessary to achieve his vision of the scene. Unless you aren't talking about a live scene but rather a photo - a 'plain' photo that tried to capture 'what is'. I don't photograph to try and recreate what is. I would find that a waste of time and boring and leaving little in the way of artistic interpretation of the scene. I try to...Show more

While I myself am guilty of (at least trying to) "find the beauty" in otherwise undesirable locations, perhaps the more correct goal is finding the impact of those locations and situations. It has taught me to see differently in those places.

This tracks are across from the city dump. I return there often when the conditions in the mountains aren't to my liking.

http://chadbrown.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v34/p18257129-4.jpg


Once again, I do appreciate the thoughtful, detailed responses in this thread. I don't mean for this to end the conversation, but I feel Dan's quote is a good place to end this post.

Perhaps the least important thing about a photograph is how it was made.

Dan




Nov 21, 2011 at 10:19 AM
kwalsh
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p.2 #5 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


As Alan already pointed out we should be careful about the term "HDR". It is has been misapplied to mean "tone-mapping" so much that in the vernacular the term "HDR" is now so ill-defined it has no meaning.

At issue is how to combine multiple exposures to extend the capture dynamic range and then how to compress that extended dynamic range to fit in the very limited output dynamic range.

Multi-exposure combining takes three forms I'm aware of:

- Create an HDR file from multiple exposures by careful alignment and calibration of the photometric information from all of the exposures and store this as floating point data. This file can not be directly displayed. Creation of the HDR file is automatic. This is what "HDR" once meant. To display this kind of file often tone-mapping is applied and this is where I think the conflation of "HDR" and "Tone-mapping" came from. They are not the same thing! An HDR file can be output without tone mapping. The HDR file creation is automatic, but the conversion to an output LDR file is under the control of the photographer. PhotoShop and PhotoMatix can produce these floating point HDR files and have various LDR conversion options for them. One such option is no tone-mapping, produce a "noiseless" linear or near linear output TIFF and then edit manually with masks.

- Create a linear file (RAW or TIFF) from multiple exposures and edit it like any other linear RAW/TIFF file. No floating point. Can display like any RAW file. This RAW file just has little if any noise in the shadows. ZeroNoise and PhotoAcute can create. Any editor can edit. You can push the shadows with masks just like standard darkroom techniques to get the output you want. As noted above, you can even generate such a linear TIFF file from an HDR file in PS if you want.

- Treat the exposures separately, typically optimizing each one for different regions, and then blend with masks. This option skips the creation of a single file with extended dynamic range but in the end is doing the same thing as the option above.

All three are equivalent really. The first option can very much do what the second does if you use the tools properly (don't tone-map). The last two can be tonemapped if you'd like, you don't need an HDR file to tonemap. It is purely a question of which workflow suits you the best.

If you tone map a lot then probably the first option is not a bad idea.

If you hate tone-mapping but want a consistent workflow in something like LR and are proficient with its local editing features then the second option works very well. Of course you could still tone map this file.

The third option really is not any different from the second in theory, but in practice can feel very different. In option two you have a single input file with a global gamma and tone curve applied as a starting point. Of course with masks you can do arbitrary things to various regions, but the starting point is a single global tone curve. In the third option your separate exposures have tone curves at different exposure biases. Again, you could make them look like the same starting point as the second option or the first option. And you could still tone map as well.

In summary, from an image processing perspective all these techniques are the same. The difference is in the starting point for your editing. Whichever one gets you to the desired output the most easily is probably the one for you to use.

Tone-mapping is a red herring. It is a completely separate issue from HDR. Having an HDR file does not require tone-mapping, nor does having a non-HDR file prevent you from doing so.

I think most of this thread has focused on "tone-mapping" vs. "local-editing" methods of compressing dynamic range for the output medium. That is a very interesting discussion with a lot of creative discussions. I only posted to try to convey that I think that is where the creative decisions occur and from my perspective how you got the high dynamic range input (HDR floating point vs. Linear combined RAW vs. separate exposures in layers) is much less interesting as they are all nearly equivalent to each other.

Ken



Nov 21, 2011 at 10:58 AM
dsjtecserv
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p.2 #6 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


I came on this conversation late, but the thoughtful responses above have expressed what I would have said if I'd joined earlier, except that they said it better. I think this thread should be packaged into a book, or perhaps added as a sticky to the top of the forum.

Chad, I have one response to your follow-up question that you may find responsive. I am now to the point where I use one or more "HDR-type techniques", to some degree, for nearly every serious photo I take. I shoot bracketed exposures as my default; the only common exceptions are birds and wildlife, and people or events. In rare cases I end up deciding that one of the bracketed images is all that I need, but more commonly I use a combination of software exposure fusion (TuFuse) and manual blending and layer adjustment to sample and tweak elements of two or more of the exposures. I do this even where the dynamic range of the scene isn't strictly exceeding the abilities of the sensor, and I even do it where the end result is intended to have clipped shadows (but not highlights). I find that having as broader range of "information" about the scene allows me to construct an image the better evokes what I have in mind, with better overall quality, in many cases.

I realize that some may raise eyebrows about my use of the word "construct" an image, but I used it deliberately. I do believe that we have come to a point where technology allows us to utilize resources well beyond those available in the original practice of photography in order to realize images that would not have been previously possible, and that this is slowly becoming the "new normal". I don't for a minute think that this precludes the use of traditional tools, including film, or less ambitious processing techniques for digital captures. An Ansel Adams or Galen Rowell image still holds the same power for me as they did when they were the best of their age. But our ability to use techniques such as HDR/fusion/blending works to expand the range of what we can produce to evoke a similar reaction. I don't think that's a bad thing, or something to be bemoaned, at all.

Dave



Nov 21, 2011 at 11:29 AM
Steve Sieren
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p.2 #7 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


I shoot and process HDR work manually in photoshop more then 99% of the time but I'm not close minded on it, in fact I'll even teach how to do just because it's highly popular. Regardless of HDR processing styles, I've seen hand blended images in photoshop with any auto HDR software used that have the HDR look to them so why does it even matter if you claim to not use HDR when you've got the look? I've even seen medium format and large format photographers do this to their work.

http://www.sierenphotography.com/photos/i-KTCkpQR/0/O/i-KTCkpQR.jpg

Nik's HDR efex pro was used for this one and I'd imagine I will eventually forget that was processed with HDR software.

http://www.sierenphotography.com/photos/i-8w6F6CZ/0/O/i-8w6F6CZ.jpg

Here is an image where I wanted the HDR look and I used photoshop's HDR merge but it gave to much of a realistic look so I had lots of processing to give it the surreal look where all the texture popped out in certain places.

http://www.sierenphotography.com/photos/892724293_wSqEq-O.jpg

One thing is for sure, I don't want images that look way overdone like this exaggeration. It not hdr but I created the look by adding lots of glamor glow / Orton Effect or so called "glow filter".

http://www.sierenphotography.com/photos/875236063_HvW73-L.jpg

I'll say the artist photographer doesn't want documentary work so use what works best for you and keep your options open. Or maybe just take bits and pieces from each photograph if you can.



Nov 21, 2011 at 11:51 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #8 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


kwalsh wrote:
All three are equivalent really.


I have to disagree here. They are not "equivalent," but instead are different approaches to the same problem that lead to different results. They can be combined and they can be done subtly and tastefully and they all deal with wide dynamic range scenes - but that doesn't make them equivalent.

Take care,

Dan

BTW: Steve's "old car interior" shot is a great example of a situation in which HDR is an effective approach, and his result does not scream "HDR!" :-)



Nov 21, 2011 at 03:16 PM
river rover
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p.2 #9 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


This may come as an aside but, my first experience with HDRI wasn't through photography but through HDRI probes that were meant to provide a truer tonal range in Image Based Lighting in 3D software. Basically a HDRI 360 degree image was used to light a 3D environment. Even though a 32 bit image couldn't be displayed on screen the luminance effect on the surrounding geometry could be. Having that as a starting reference point EVERY Pseudo HDR/Tone Mapped image is at best a compromise and a bit of slight of hand.

Dan's excellent image above is a perfect example. It looks natural because if you were actually standing at that spot and your eyes were moving around the scene all the transitions between tonal ranges approximate what your eyes could adjust to on the spot. I'm sure that if you concentrated on the flowers in the foreground that in your peripheral vision, the sky would be, or close to being, blown out.

Too often where Tone mapped or blended images fall apart to my eyes is when there is a jarring transition, most noticeably on horizons or hard direct shadowed areas where a center point of focus indicates a tonal range transition that my brain intuitively knows cant be real. If I see a sunset over a treeline, every real life experience tells me that I shouldn't be able to discern bark texture AND the bright orange sky at the same time. A "good" tone mapped image recognizes that the eyes ability to adjust to exposure is a slow gradual thing and that transitions are best spaced out over large areas rather than extreme micro-contrast that seems to come out of a lot of automated HDR software.



Nov 21, 2011 at 03:55 PM
kwalsh
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p.2 #10 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


gdanmitchell wrote:
I have to disagree here. They are not "equivalent," but instead are different approaches to the same problem that lead to different results. They can be combined and they can be done subtly and tastefully and they all deal with wide dynamic range scenes - but that doesn't make them equivalent.


I only meant equivalent in the sense that there is nothing unique to what is possible with any of the three input methods. You can mix and match parts of them at will if you have the right tools, skills and patience. There is nothing that can be done with any of the three methods of processing the input images that can't be done identically using the others. That was what I was driving at but I guess I didn't make very clear.

Of course while that is true, in practice it would be really silly to force one workflow to awkwardly match another workflow that produces the result more smoothly.

What is very different between the methods is what they usually imply as far as output goes (but not strictly). Which I think is what you are saying, the output methods which are typically tied to various input methods lead to different results because of what each set of tools does best (or perhaps encourages). That is what I was trying to refer to in the second half of my post - each output method gives you a different starting point and tools to work with.

My larger point was that in reality the input method for your exposures is not what you should focus on. What output method you choose is what matters. That may effect what input method you use, but strictly it doesn't have to.

Ken

P.S. I've used all three methods myself and also prefer a "natural" look when the scene forces me to use tone mapping. That said, I've seen some "obvious" tone maps that work very well as a well intentioned artistic rendering.



Nov 21, 2011 at 04:56 PM
morris
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p.2 #11 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


In my experience HDR robs your image of contrast. I add contrast back yet the middle exposure frequently has more pop. Stacking works much better for me

Morris



Nov 21, 2011 at 07:09 PM
Fo Tollery
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p.2 #12 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


chadbro wrote:
Lots of people on this forum really demonstrate a distaste for HDR.


As others have more eloquently stated, I don't think it's so much a distaste for the 'HDR' process as it is the results generated. It seems, from the modest playing I've done w/ several different 'HDR' packages, they all introduce almost as many problems in the processing of a good image as they solve. I have little doubt images of extraordinary quality can be achieved using any of these packages. Unfortunately, it seems all too rare their users have the necessary skill to do so.

But I think there's another dynamic involved that leads you to the perception of a general distaste for HDR. And that is the type of critiques that are posted for 'HDR' generated images vs those posted for various 'conventional' ('straight'?.....I'm probably not choosing the best terminology) processing techniques.

To my way of thinking, there's little arguing that the critiques offered for HDR images in this forum are more 'honest' (harsh?....biting?) than those offered for non-HDR images. While a VERY sizable % of critiques for non-HDR images tend to be rather 'soft' back-slapping, positive reinforcement type commentary, that's not the case w/ HDR stuff. Folks here are much more prone to tell ya exactly what they think about an HDR generated image.

From my view in the cheap seats, the disparity is large enough that I've half considered a couple times saying my images are all 'HDR' images......even though it's not the case.....just on the notion I'd get a better assessment of how viewers actually perceive my work. Granted, I like a good old fashioned back slap as much as anyone, but there are times when knowing where things could be improved, or just flat don't work, would be just as helpful.

I don't know why, much less how, that disparity originated, but it's pretty undeniable, IMO. It's also made me wonder if there may be a surprising # of posters who routinely do use one of the various packages, and just don't reveal that's the case because of the differences in offered critiques.

That oughta get the pot a little stirred up.






Nov 21, 2011 at 08:58 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #13 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


From wiki [edited for brevity] : The eye has a static contrast ratio of around 100:1 (about 6.5 f-stops). As soon as the eye moves it re-adjusts its exposure. Hence, a dynamic contrast ratio of about 1,000,000:1 (about 20 f-stops) is possible. So when you look over a scene - you percieve just less than 20 fstops of differences in light.

The best canon camera has about 12 stops of dynamic range. 12 does not sound much different than 20 but remember that each stop is 1/2 the light so a person can see objects that have about 1/100 as much light as a camera sensor is capable of. Well maybe not that much because you eyes can't react that much when faced with bright scene but way more than a sensor.And that is assuming that you properly expose. Bad exposure cuts off some dynamic range potential of you camera.

The point of all this is without multiple exposures or ndgrad, you cannot capture what your eyes will see. Thus mutliple exposure is essential for a realistic picture.

In 10 years, hdr will be obsolete as cameras catch up to our eyes but before then it is essential for a "as my eyes percieve it kind of photo".

People that don't like hdr/blending/ndgrads have trained their taste to like low dynamic range pictures. It is a matter of taste.




Nov 21, 2011 at 10:54 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #14 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Fo Tollery wrote:
To my way of thinking, there's little arguing that the critiques offered for HDR images in this forum are more 'honest' (harsh?....biting?) than those offered for non-HDR images. While a VERY sizable % of critiques for non-HDR images tend to be rather 'soft' back-slapping, positive reinforcement type commentary, that's not the case w/ HDR stuff. Folks here are much more prone to tell ya exactly what they think about an HDR generated image.


Lot's of interesting thoughts in that post. I do think that most often when people share a photo they do not talk about the techniques they used. I know that I rarely do when the purpose of my posts is simply to share photographs and then consider what sort of response I see.

Some uses of HDR - let's call them "extreme HDR" - are often easily identifiable. So in these cases it is difficult to separate whether the reaction to the technique or the photographic result, but in either case it would seem to come down to differences in the appearance of the image that are caused (largely) by the application of the technique.

On the other hand, the use of many of the other techniques is not nearly so obvious. I'd wager that very few viewers of my little photograph of the lupine-filled meadow with Picture Peak in the background (posted earlier in this thread) would necessarily notice the technique that I used in that photo, and even those who understand what the light must have actually been like in this scene would not see the mechanics of combining three images to create it.

The more general question you raise about the nature of the commentary on posted photographs is valid, but it is also complex on several levels:

1. Not everyone is looking for a true critique of their photographs when they post them here, and in these cases it is perhaps not appropriate to offer one unless it is welcomed.

2. Perhaps a small minority of posters understand what good critique looks like or how to do it. This leads to some strange and sometimes harmful things that the posters think qualify as "criticism," like telling the person what is "wrong" with their image, mistaking their own preferences for fact, or offering up banalities about the so-called rule of thirds and similar.

3. When the poster requests feedback, it is often in a very general way ("tell me what you think about of this photo") or they are merely asking for a choice ("which one of these do you like best?").

Dan



Nov 22, 2011 at 11:10 PM
kwalsh
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p.2 #15 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Fo Tollery wrote:
But I think there's another dynamic involved that leads you to the perception of a general distaste for HDR. And that is the type of critiques that are posted for 'HDR' generated images vs those posted for various 'conventional' ('straight'?.....I'm probably not choosing the best terminology) processing techniques.

To my way of thinking, there's little arguing that the critiques offered for HDR images in this forum are more 'honest' (harsh?....biting?) than those offered for non-HDR images. While a VERY sizable % of critiques for non-HDR images tend to be rather 'soft' back-slapping, positive reinforcement type commentary, that's not the case
...Show more

Interesting post!

I think you may be right to a degree, but I do frequently see feedback when someone takes contrast or saturation too far ("I think it looks a bit over cooked"). Of course there are photos where heavy contrast and even saturation work just fine but in others it is a problem when the viewer notices the technique instead of the subject. I think the same is true of tone mapping, it works well on some images and the viewer doesn't object, with others it is just another form of "over cooked".

Ken



Nov 22, 2011 at 11:49 PM
Fo Tollery
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p.2 #16 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


gdanmitchell wrote:
Lot's of interesting thoughts in that post. I do think that most often when people share a photo they do not talk about the techniques they used. I know that I rarely do when the purpose of my posts is simply to share photographs and then consider what sort of response I see.


Good point. And could well mean there are many more images posted processed w/ one HDR package or another than we realize. And we don't know it because they're using the tools very effectively.

On the other hand, the use of many of the other techniques is not nearly so obvious. I'd wager that very few viewers of my little photograph of the lupine-filled meadow with Picture Peak in the background (posted earlier in this thread) would necessarily notice the technique that I used in that photo, and even those who understand what the light must have actually been like in this scene would not see the mechanics of combining three images to create it.

No doubt about it...because you are a skilled craftsmen. I have little doubt you could produce similarly great results with HDR s/w if you put your mind to it. The same would apply to many here, but those with such ability have generally found a technique (or a collection thereof) that work for them.


1. Not everyone is looking for a true critique of their photographs when they post them here, and in these cases it is perhaps not appropriate to offer one unless it is welcomed.

That's a point I both know to be true, and in the same instant don't really don't 'grok'. To my way of thinking, putting an image out for public display is inherently asking for critique. That critique can take many forms, of course.....if I build a website and post images for sale, the 'critique' comes in the form of sales, or lack thereof. But if I post an image on a 'photo forum' such as this where the overwhelming majority of visitors are other photographers, critique is virtually implied and probably should be expected...whether requested or not. It's just not in my dna to understand why else we post images on sites such as this. And while that is *my* perspective, I also understand it is one a LOT of folks would not share.

2. Perhaps a small minority of posters understand what good critique looks like or how to do it......

To use the vernacular of the day....true 'dat. I would consider myself only a marginally decent photographer. But my photography skills far outclass my 'wordsmith' skills. I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers around here more than once with my comments.

The only thing I'll say about that is there are 2 parties involved in any form of communication......a 'critique' just being one form thereof. And both parties share in the responsibility of that communication. I.e., while it's on the 'talker' (the one offering the critique) to offer a critique in a fashion commensurate with generally perceived forum lines, its also important for the 'listener' (the poster of the image) to not turn into emotional jello at the first sign of 'criticism'.

IMO, it's become something of a societal norm for the onus of any (mis?)communication to fall almost excusively on 'the talker' while 'the listener' is seldom questioned about the level of their response. And this forum seems to be a fairly representative microcosm of society as a whole in this respect.

I suspect we've strayed FAR off the original intent of the thread so will stop there.



Nov 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM
Ben Horne
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p.2 #17 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


When an "overcooked" HDR photo is posted in the forum --- it is often because the photographer is new to landscapes, and thinks that HDR is the be-all-end-all solution for landscape photography. After all, it is the "easiest" solution --- though certainly not the best.

These posts often state that this is the person's "first HDR" or that they are "new to landscape photography." I believe these photos attract so many comments and critiques because most FMers have already been down that road, and have realized that there are far better solutions. Sure, it takes a bit more photoshop knowledge to do exposure blending than HDR --- but it's not a big deal, and easily learned.

There are indeed many photographers here who regularly use HDR tonemapping in their images. Other people might not notice it, but I certainly do. Do I say anything? No -- because that is the technique they have chosen and I don't think they are looking for feedback in that regard.





Nov 24, 2011 at 12:12 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #18 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


gdanmitchell wrote:
On the other hand, the use of many of the other techniques is not nearly so obvious. I'd wager that very few viewers of my little photograph of the lupine-filled meadow with Picture Peak in the background (posted earlier in this thread) would necessarily notice the technique that I used in that photo, and even those who understand what the light must have actually been like in this scene would not see the mechanics of combining three images to create it.


Fo Tollery replied:
No doubt about it... I have little doubt you could produce similarly great results with HDR s/w if you put your mind to it..


Maybe I have...

And maybe I haven't...

;-)

Dan



Nov 24, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Camperjim
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p.2 #19 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


Thanks for starting this thread. I have learned a lot. The discussions have touched on so many points of view, I will only try to add a couple of comments.

First i wonder if we would all have different opinions about HDR if the Photomatix and other progams were introduced with less aggressive defaults. My version of Photomatix has a 70% default which is almost always overcooked; i.e., the gritty HDR look with halos and other artifacts. When I use Photomatix, I typically start with a 45% setting and I take the light smoothing to the highest level.

My biggest issue with hdr processing is not the gritty, gaudy hdr look. That can be controlled. I can't stand the artifacts, mainly halos and ghosting. These are sort of like a slanted horizon line. Once you start to notice the artifacts, you can't help but be annoyed.

Without the use of hdr processing, I am left with lots of work and also unsatisfactory tools to deal with the dynamic range issue. Landscapes typically have a relatively intensely bright sky and features which are very dark. We should not have to wait for golden hour, front lighted scenes in order to shoot. Processing these high dynamic range images is currently difficult. In addition to the shadow tool and curves, I usually need to do layers, masks and blends. In addition to all the work and skill needed, there always seems to be a compromise between details and noise in the dark areas.

Short term I would love to see improvements in the hdr software to eliminate the artifacts. Tuning the software is also very difficult with lots of choices that are not intuitive. There is plenty of room for improvement in the software.

Long term, I think the solution is obvious. camera technology will eventually improve to include better capture of high dynmaic range scenes and also better in-camera software to handle the data.

Finally as a last point, when hdr processing is discussed we are soon faced with a discussion about what is realistic and what appears fake. I think we have been bombarded with countless millions of images based on film or the current electronic technology. Our ideas of realism have been shaped by this. Once the technology improves to allow us to see more dynamic range in our photographic images, our expectations will be reset. The changes are upon us. I am staying at a relatives house and he has a collection of National Geographic magazines. For years and years, almost every image is pumped up and also includes hdr or blended processing to control dynamic range.



Nov 24, 2011 at 01:13 PM
curious80
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p.2 #20 · convince me exposure fusion, blending, any sort of stacking is way different than HDR


gdanmitchell wrote:
Not quite. A lot of the work for exposure blending is quite subjective, and involves some subtle decisions based on what you observe about the effect on the photograph as you work on it. For example, in my example above, in some places the blend between two images might be relatively abrupt while in others it might be much more feathered. And my decisions are not simply made on the basis of technical elements of the image - the luminosity of area A and the luminosity of area B - but of my personal knowledge of the original scene and
...Show more

I understand and fully appreciate what you are saying. However in an HDR flow wouldn't these map to things like dodging and burning the HDR file etc? In reality we all do an "HDR-to-LDR" conversion when we process a single 14-bit RAW file to create an 8-bit JPEG. And we make use of not only tone mapping but a number of other editing tools to get the look that we want. Theoretically given a similar level of control during the HDR conversion process we should be able to get exactly the results we want out of the HDR capture. And let me be clear that I am not talking about the capabilities of current "HDR tools", I am just discussing this in a pure conceptual way to understand if given the right tools we can get what we want out of an HDR capture.




Nov 24, 2011 at 04:39 PM
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