As a general rule I treat it like an in person buy.
As a seller I will take PayPal gift, but really prefer not to take regular PayPal (members with good standing maybe, nobody new)
As a buyer I will only send it to those with feedback, and usually after a phone call.
If you don't want to den take a phone call from me to verify who you are, there's probably a reason.
But in person you would have a minute to inspect and test....online you can't. However paypal's habit of siding with the seller is ridiculous. I take numerous shots as I am packing the item and of the ship label...but I doubt it's enough.
I actually just bought a lens and paid the extra $60 to not send payment as a gift.
Brad Barr wrote:
Gift
Living expense
Payment owed
Other
Cash Advance (?Your credit card provider may charge you fees for a cash advance.)
these are the options.....Payment owed comes to mind.
In reality...why should it make any difference what the money is for? If they send money, the costs to paypal are the same regardless right? Of course they are. Its called a marketing tactic. If it truly cost them business they would cut it off at the head.....why do you think it hasnt been cut off? Hmmmmmm
They are trading the loss of fees encountered (cost of doing business) against the benefit of increased users, and brand loyalty (forming online spending habits).
They arent telling you thats whats going on....but really, do you actually think a company the size of ebay/paypal would allow themselves to be cheated in any way shape or form? They know exactly whats going on here and relishing hanging on to all the business as you become a loyal pp user stronger and stronger w every transaction. Keeping google checkout, and all the others far behind them....Show more →
I don't use the gift option because I want the protection, but Brad is totally right here. Paypal knows exactly how this will be used and they don't care. If they did care there would be no gift option to begin with. I think the gift option exists just so that if a transaction goes bad they don't have to deal with it.
Yeah, anybody with "moral" qualms about this...... I don't even know.
Even if it weren't PP (arguably one of the scummiest big companies to pop up in the last decade or two), the idea that the "gift" thing was anything but a purposeful marketing tool to compete with new forms of payment is daft. If you have been a serious seller at any point, you know the absolutely insane amounts of money PP gets and that these minuscule fund transfer fees are at most rounding errors they're completely fine with losing to form habits.
PP is an insurance company (with horrible service), the money transfer is incidental to that.
I am a "Lurker" here...have been for a number of years. I spend a lot of time enjoying the great photographs...especially on the Nature & Wildlife Forum. I have never listed an item here, but keep an eye out for things I might want. I'm an amateur "photographer" after all ...not a seller/buyer, so I rarely buy or sell anything. In that sense, I guess I would be sorely handicapped should I ever choose to try to sell on this Forum. I've sold and bought on Ebay from time to time under the user ID of Leej6, with few issues...just been lucky I guess. After reading this post, I wonder if I should EVER again buy or sell on-line from private parties!!!
duranash: I've realistically done 400+ camera transactions between here, ebay, craigslist, and other boards. I've had, in total 2 bad experiences. Nothing in life is completely safe, so worrying about a 0.5% chance of being screwed is silly.
This thread is the equivalent of those "Red Pavement" films they showed in driving class........
Isn't it also against paypal policy to charge the buyer the paypal fees?
Its annoying when people say "add 3% for regular paypal". The seller should always take the fees. selling on here is much cheaper than ebays 9-12% fees (including paypal). Whenever I sell an item, I put one final price that the buyer pays. including shipping.
akjackson1 wrote:
Isn't it also against paypal policy to charge the buyer the paypal fees?
Its annoying when people say "add 3% for regular paypal". The seller should always take the fees. selling on here is much cheaper than ebays 9-12% fees (including paypal). Whenever I sell an item, I put one final price that the buyer pays. including shipping.
Well, really, in the end, it comes out of buyer's end. I guess one could list two prices (one with fee and the other without). Otherwise, why non-paypal buyers should be punished for the fee (I see 3% less as a discount for these buyers)...but we are digressed here...
akjackson1 wrote:
Isn't it also against paypal policy to charge the buyer the paypal fees?
Its annoying when people say "add 3% for regular paypal". The seller should always take the fees. selling on here is much cheaper than ebays 9-12% fees (including paypal). Whenever I sell an item, I put one final price that the buyer pays. including shipping.
Ditto. And as Thang says, if the seller accepts payment by another method, he can offer a 3% discount.
akjackson1 wrote:
Isn't it also against paypal policy to charge the buyer the paypal fees?
Its annoying when people say "add 3% for regular paypal". The seller should always take the fees. selling on here is much cheaper than ebays 9-12% fees (including paypal). Whenever I sell an item, I put one final price that the buyer pays. including shipping.
This would be a true if there is only one payment method, but there are still other form of payment like MO, checks, account deposits....etc.
Every seller give a choice to the buyer, to pay 3% or not, to choice paypal or not, if there is only one payment method available most people will write one total price
Against paypal policy is to pay via paypal gift for the item,
Imagemaster wrote:
Ditto. And as Thang says, if the seller accepts payment by another method, he can offer a 3% discount.
Since the majority of buyers will be through paypal, the method in which the price is displayed should be targeted to the largest group - those that pay with paypal. Only makes sense! 3% discount sounds much better than 3% fee!
Very interesting change to Paypal's wording. When I log in, I see nothing about sending a "Gift" as in the past. Now I'm presented with two options: 1)Send money for goods and services or 2)Send money to family or friends.
Choosing option 2) Send money to family or friends, presents me with the option to fund it with my Paypal balance or bank account and the recipient will not be charged fees.
What is to stop me from considering someone on the boards as a 'friend' ?
As for protection with Paypal, it is only very recently that they started offering protection for transactions outside of Ebay. Their previous policy was if you didn't purchase something on ebay, it didn't matter what method you paid, they still collected their fees and you were offered no protection. I'm sure that increased popularity in other online payment methods has factored into their decision to offer buyer protection.
When it comes to online sales to private person, there really isn't a great deal of protection for anyone. One deal with an unscrupulous person (buyer or seller) and they can use different methods to get over on you. It doesn't matter if you paid by Paypal or not. We've all heard the stories of the buyer would purchased something and the box arrives and it does not contain the item paid for (ie-a rock, book, etc), but the buyer has "proof" of delivery and then it is one person's word against anothers. Or the other story of the seller that sells something, and the buyer says they never received it or it is not exactly as described and the cheating buyer makes claims that Paypal honors and the honest seller gets screwed.
The bottom line is that there is a certain amount of trust involved and the feedback system provided here goes a long way in establishing that trust, however, there are no guarantees when it comes to online transactions.
Folks, this isn't complicated - so why has it become so?
Issue#1 - Gift = Fraud. This one seemed to be about people trying to convince themselves that misrepresenting a buy/sell transaction as a gift to PayPal to circumvent the fee wasn't fraud.
I trust that this one has finally been put to bed - it's really simple - it's fraud. (for those of you that still don't get it I will assume you are the same ones still searching for Obama's birth certificate).
Issue#2 - How to most effectively compose an ad which clearly lays out the price the seller (in this case) desires. Again - not so difficult is it?
I advocate for akjackson's position: PayPal buyers represent the largest block of buyers (and remember no more gift option right?) - so just quote the price you want inclusive of PP fees. Simple.
People that want to trade in cheques, or money orders are really taking a chance - if the seller wants to discount for that risk then so be it - indicate the discount for these forms of payment.
If people did this (no more gift options, seller picking up the PP fees) then that would make the already excellent FM buy/sell forum an even better, safer place for everyone to transact and would raise the level of integrity of the whole site.
argar wrote:
This would be a true if there is only one payment method, but there are still other form of payment like MO, checks, account deposits....etc.
Every seller give a choice to the buyer, to pay 3% or not, to choice paypal or not, if there is only one payment method available most people will write one total price
luke_28 wrote:
What is to stop me from considering someone on the boards as a 'friend' ?
Nothing, but you seem to be missing the point. If you buy a camera from your "friend" using PayPal gift, and he ends up sending you a rock, you can't open a Resolution Dispute with PayPal because you violated their Agreement by not saying that your payment was for goods.
If you want to risk losing your money that way, go for it.
I bought a lens from someone on this forum last year and he had excellent feedback. Stupidly, I paid for it by "gift" as the seller requested. The item never arrived and the seller did not return my money. My complaint to PayPal was replied with, "You did not indicate that your payment was for goods, therefore your transaction is not covered under our Buyer Protection."
Imagemaster wrote:
Nothing, but you seem to be missing the point. If you buy a camera from your "friend" using PayPal gift, and he ends up sending you a rock, you can't open a Resolution Dispute with PayPal because you violated their Agreement by not saying that your payment was for goods.
If you want to risk losing your money that way, go for it.
I bought a lens from someone on this forum last year and he had excellent feedback. Stupidly, I paid for it by "gift" as the seller requested. The item never arrived and the seller did not return my money. My complaint to PayPal was replied with, "You did not indicate that your payment was for goods, therefore your transaction is not covered under our Buyer Protection."
I'm sorry that you were scammed. It is very unfortunate when these things happen.
If they had sent you a rock, and had delivery confirmation that you had signed for the item, it would have been your word against theirs. They can say "Hey, I sent him a lens and he took a photo of a rock and is trying to scam me." If the rock weighs close to the weight of lens, and he has a "proof of delivery", who do you think Paypal is going to side with ?
As I said in my original post there is risk in all online transactions. While I haven't personally bought or sold here, I would accept Paypal and pay the fee. I consider it a cost of doing business.
Imagemaster wrote:
Nothing, but you seem to be missing the point. If you buy a camera from your "friend" using PayPal gift, and he ends up sending you a rock, you can't open a Resolution Dispute with PayPal because you violated their Agreement by not saying that your payment was for goods.
If you want to risk losing your money that way, go for it.
I bought a lens from someone on this forum last year and he had excellent feedback. Stupidly, I paid for it by "gift" as the seller requested. The item never arrived and the seller did not return my money. My complaint to PayPal was replied with, "You did not indicate that your payment was for goods, therefore your transaction is not covered under our Buyer Protection."
For those that think that "regular Paypal" protects you outside of Ebay,think again.
I paid regular Paypal,never received the item,filed a dispute,won the dispute BUT never got a penny
recovered from them......Here's their reply.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.
We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.
Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in
question if they become available in the seller's account in the future and
will take appropriate action against the seller."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've only read half of the posts on this thread so don't know if this has been suggested. Also I've only purchased once on this site, not that that need matter. It was a very agreeable transaction that I chose to make with regular Paypal.
Why not encourage sellers to post the all inclusive price for their item and state 3% LESS for Paypal gift. Then we'll know the real cost to the buyer and those preferring to relinquish the protection offerred by Paypal will have a pleasant surprise upon doing the math.
