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Archive 2011 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?

  
 
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #1 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Posting as a service to members; there's a practically brand new GXR-M over at our fellow site, GetDPI:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=382446#post382446

I don't know the member personally, but thought that some here might be interested.



Jan 18, 2012 at 05:56 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.19 #2 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Heh, the mount looks funny on its own with a lens mounted!


Jan 18, 2012 at 06:25 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.19 #3 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


It is easy to forget you are looking at such a small detail on screen. I think it looks very good and would hold up really well in print. Perhaps a small touch local contrast enhancement to pop the black level a little in contrast, I am not sure. Other than that, it is done. I find that I don't have to sharpen files much after RPP development.

Looking at the shutter speed I am thinking that your friend might have induced the tiniest amount of shake/vibration if holding the camera out from the body. I find that all mirrorless cameras shot like this are more prone to slight shake/blur. I struggle with the 50mm close up and 75mm and longer at shutter speeds under 1/60th unless I hold it to my face/brace where I can hand hold much steadier.

But I don't know this lens, if there is more snap to be had by bracing the camera for that shot or not. I think it looks really good as it is.

For wide angles I am known to be Mr Roboto and crank out 1/8 or 1/15 shots on a regular basis.

Have you gotten/used your 15mm yet? I have been using mine a lot lately and I am surprised at how good it is. It is a whole other lens than the Zeiss ZM18, it definitely has more character but with the LCD you can really use that character and I most often use it wide open, f4.5, and at f5.6. It is a really solid performer on APS-C, right out to the edges and corners. I am very glad I bought mine. I think you will enjoy yours.

EDIT: Kit; forget all the nitpicking above. The more I look at it the more natural it looks. I am in a bit of high contrast mode thinking at the moment since I am shooting an industrial looking basement that is to be converted in to rehearsal and recording studios. Looking at the eye it looks fine and the shot has a nice tonal balance to it.




Jan 19, 2012 at 12:44 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #4 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Hello Henrik,

I just did a 'Q&D' (quick and dirty) conversion in Aperture; literally a few second's work. It might be interesting to re-convert in RPP, but although I have downloaded it, I have not used it yet.

It's likely that there is a bit of shake (as I said, he has never picked up one of these bodies before, and I was coaching on the focus aids!); this is why I think this is a remarkable image technically.

The CV is working very well: I will be shooting an interior tomorrow for a client (just an ordinary house that has been styled by the client, for sale by the owners) and I want to use only the available light. have you found that the CV sharpens up much as you stop down?

Re. your last remark: I am a big fan of natural, in terms of images; in fact speaking most generally here, most images I see on the web have been 'overcooked'. Cheers, kl



Jan 19, 2012 at 02:37 AM
rscheffler
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p.19 #5 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Kit, I think it looks fine and agree with Henrik that there's probably some more sharpness that could be gained had it been done at a higher shutter speed.

Henrik, what you commented about your shutter speed threshold is pretty much my experience with the M9. 50mm lens at 1/60 is dicey for me, and definitely prefer 1/125 or higher. Something that is evident using the magnified focus assist on the GXR is just how unsteady I am... and have certainly become spoiled by IS on some of my Canon lenses.

I finally had a chance to get out and use the GXR a bit and tried most of my M lenses on it. I agree about the CV15, it works very nicely and definitely peaks in resolution somewhere between f/5.6 and f/8. The only apparent benefit of using f/8 is slightly less vignetting and more depth of field, if needed. By f/11 there is definitely an onset of diffraction softness.

Here are some photos:

A visit by NPS to the newspaper where I work from time to time:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0004.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0007.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0010.jpg

One thing I noticed on the camera and finally looked at on the computer is the GXR's white clipping point. In the photos above the top of the technician's white ball cap and the many white objects around him were showing the highlight clipping warning. However, no problem with any blown whites from the RAW files, so Ricoh is probably being a bit conservative with the warning. Lenses above were 21 Lux for the first two, at around f/2.8 for a bit of depth of field, and CV15 for the third, wide open, all at ISO 800. The files at 100% with no luminance NR in LR have some granularity, perhaps more than I'd see from the M9, but if desired, do clean up very nicely with luminance NR.

Here are some at a cemetery.. But first a bit of commentary. It was below freezing, perhaps around -5 C with a bit of wind. Therefore I was wearing thin cloves I've used for a few years with my Canons and the M9. The GXR's handling was generally fine, though it's smaller buttons and knobs become increasingly challenging to adjust as my fingers got colder and lost dexterity. While I didn't have the chance to try the NEX-5N in weather cold enough for gloves, I suspect it would have been more frustrating to use. I'm not sure whether the touchscreen works with gloves? Maybe someone can confirm this. I still have only one battery for the GXR, with a couple on the way in the next couple days. I managed 190 photos today, about 40 of which were inside, before the battery died and ended my outing. I'm sure the cold weather was a factor, but still less than I expected.

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0141.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0153.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0159.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0165.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0180.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0188.jpg

Lenses in order: 21 Lux, 50 Lux ASPH, CV15 x2, CV35 f/1.2 II, 21 Lux.

These all had a fair amount of tweaking in post, with burning, dodging, hue shifts, contrast, etc.. just having some fun, and finding that I can process these pretty similarly to the M9, though perhaps can't dig out the shadows quite as aggressively. And I think the M9 files are somewhat 'thicker' feeling. Not sure if that makes sense.

Coming from the M9, Canon 1DIV and my few weeks with the NEX-5N, I have to admit I do miss the higher resolution. It's not a huge difference, but it's there, especially with any cropping.

Hope you don't mind all the images... maybe we can turn this into a bit of an image thread as well instead of starting up a separate one that likely will have minimal participation?


Edited on Jan 19, 2012 at 02:49 AM · View previous versions



Jan 19, 2012 at 02:38 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #6 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Wow, Ron: excellent, really. And that CV 15 image WIDE OPEN is amazing, IMHO, and very low distortion. Did you apply any correction?

Agree 110% (as we say here) about adding images here instead of a separate thread.



Jan 19, 2012 at 02:42 AM
rscheffler
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p.19 #7 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Hi Kit - thanks - no distortion corrections for any of these.

Here's another one with the CV that's lined up with parallels a bit better:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0015.jpg

I think you can see some barrel distortion, but it's not much. Definitely less than my Canon 16-35 (and sharper too).

BTW, the cemetery photos in my previous post were all at or near wide open except the CV15 which was probably around f/8. I have the habit of stopping down my wides a fair amount, but after reviewing some test images today, don't think that will be necessary with the 15 unless needing the depth of field.

And that reminded me... I referred to the level indicator numerous times and suspect it's not extremely precise because a number of images were a bit off. I guess it'll still be necessary to eyeball this to confirm.

And just for fun from one of the images above, a before and after. Exposure was for the sky to keep the blue channel from clipping, therefore the foreground was very dark:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0141sooc.jpg

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0141.jpg



Jan 19, 2012 at 02:57 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #8 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Yep: that CV 15 will be a keeper for me, for sure. Love the cemetery shot, too (the last one).


Jan 19, 2012 at 05:30 AM
Mitch Alland
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p.19 #9 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


rscheffler wrote:
...finding that I can process these pretty similarly to the M9, though perhaps can't dig out the shadows quite as aggressively. And I think the M9 files are somewhat 'thicker' feeling. Not sure if that makes sense...


Someone has told me that he thinks that the M9 has more depth in the mid tones, but I cannot say that this has been my experience; but I do think that the GXR-M has substantially better color accuracy than the M9, which is enhanced by developing with Raw Photo Processor (RPP), about which I have written in the Rangefinder Forum.

I like your last shot with the Summilux-21. The Elmarit-21 ASPH is my favorite lens on the GXR, or at least the one I've used the most.

—Mitch/Manila
Tristes Tropiques? No, They Have a Strip Mall in Chiang Mai Too



Jan 19, 2012 at 06:23 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.19 #10 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron - that's a NICE series of images. Images from your 21 Lux look terrific; I'm impressed with what the CV15 can do too.

Some comments back at you: the NEX-5N touch screen will respond to gloves but I didn't find I used it a lot when shooting hand held, with gloves on, using MF lenses. Now if only my Motorola smart phone would respond to gloved fingers (I've tried my nose, it isn't the same!) that would be something.

On battery life: Of the X100, NEX-5N and GXR my feeling is the GXR chews through packs fastest. A new body will deserve a different pack. The NEX-5N has a dual cell pack with higher power capacity in watt-hours and did quite well, beating the X100 I found although I didn't shoot it in very cold weather. Fortunately the GXR packs are cheap enough; I've been buying Lenmar third party packs for $34 bucks each but much much cheaper copies exist as well... I just can't bring myself to buy them. Three works for me in rotation; they take some time to charge though. Maybe the GXR-II will deliver us from pack enslavement.

On level: I've got the same suspicion you do... either the level is not hugely accurate or isn't granular enough. I'm using it primarily as a reminder and I do over-ride it. Crop to the rescue, which brings us to resolution: yes, more would be good. Sometimes a "digital zoom" via a crop saves the day!

I'm definitely in agreement with contributing photographs to this thread. Keep the love flowin'...



Edited on Jan 19, 2012 at 02:37 PM · View previous versions



Jan 19, 2012 at 01:20 PM
Rich M
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p.19 #11 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron.....I really like the CV15 shots of the cemetery. Very nicely composed.

Here is a shot from last week with the 24Elmar. It is certainly nice not having to think about infinity focus.

http://lanaihale.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v16/p122115932-5.jpg

R



Jan 19, 2012 at 02:34 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #12 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron, in your CV 15 shots (the group images of the photographers), how did you focus these and what was your focus point (I am assuming "ƒ8 and be there", but would love to know the point—all people seem equally sharp.


Jan 19, 2012 at 03:43 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.19 #13 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron; great series.
Rich; nice contrast. I haven't seen many shots with the 24mm Elmar, it seems to pack a lot punch.

Kit; I can't answer for Ron, but my take on wide angle lenses is that I generally shoot wide open to 5.6 on APS-C. (Most other lenses I shoot wide open and only stop down if light levels don't allow for wide open.) Whichever it is, I focus on the closest subject in groups but never past the first point of interest in an image. Depth of field will take care of the rest as much as it can, but I find that out of focus subjects of importance at the front of an image usually looks bad.




Jan 19, 2012 at 03:53 PM
rscheffler
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p.19 #14 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


BTW, a couple of the Nikon reps from yesterday's event at the paper were quite curious about the GXR. One thought it could only be purchased in Japan They had the V1 there and I played with it a bit. The EVF is crisper looking than the GXR's, but still has a bit of lag and jello, and also blacks out or freezes momentarily between shots (though it might be a playback feature that can be turned off), but not out of commission for a whole second like the GXR. I think it's a nice camera, and the 10mm pancake is really small. In the third photo of the first group above, the photographer on the right edge is using it with the 10-100 which is a huge lens. Side by side the GXR isn't much larger, though the M mount adds a fair amount of depth.

Mitch, you're probably right about color accuracy. It's still early days for me with the GXR but I was pleasantly surprised with it's quality from the indoor shots I posted above. Skin tone seems to be quite good, and not quite as blotchy as the M9 can be.

In case it wasn't clear, the last two images from the cemetery above are the same file. The first 'as shot' and the second after I did some dodging to reveal the structure. This is my usual approach with the M9, which does not like clipped highlight values, so I err on the side of underexposure and will pull areas of interest out of the darkness. The GXR seems to handle this fairly well, but in the image above, the revealed area is starting to show a fair amount of granularity. Personally, I don't mind graininess/noise within reason but my gut feeling is that the same scene, if shot on the M9, could be pulled out more with a bit less graininess due to the higher resolution.

Kit: the focus was somewhere in the middle and were all wide open to keep a reasonable shutter speed at ISO 800. I used the magnified focus assist to find a point and left it there. You'll find that the CV15 doesn't jump into focus like a faster lens with shallower depth of field, so the zone of focus will be fairly deep. But in the full rez files you can see that the nearest and farthest elements are going a bit soft. The 1000 pixel images posted here were also sharpened, which will give the impression of better than actual performance.

Thanks for the info Michael. Maybe a set of those special gloves with metal strands woven in the fibres will help with your phone? I received a couple batteries today. I went with the Ricoh branded ones for $42 from B&H... price seemed acceptable. I also ordered their cheap-o Fuji NP-95 travel charger, since the NP-95 and Ricoh DB-90 are the same battery, to get around the 5 hour charge time, which could be a problem if I'm down multiple batteries part way through a day.

The 21 Lux does look good but it seems to depend on subject content and aperture. On the GXR edges are best stopped down past f/4. If you look at its MTF, you'll see there's a pretty big dip until f/2.8 in the B zone on FF, which corresponds to the edges on APS-C, so things like tree branches can look pretty messy. It also seems to share some characteristics with the 50 Lux. Wide open there's slight SA glow that comes into play, softening the image a bit. By f/2 the central area is quite sharp with very good contrast. But on paper (MTF), it's not a neat and tidy performer like the 21mm Super-Elmarit, or the 24 Elmarit as showcased very nicely by Rich above. And my feeling is, like the 50 Lux, it looks better on FF, maybe in part because you don't really see the huge degree of vignetting it has wide open that lends a certain character to it. And it's definitely overkill for an APS-C system, though does give you a fast 30mm equivalent. And speaking of the 50 Lux... I need to use it more, but it leaves me feeling a bit flat on the GXR, at least wide open. I also tried the ZM50 Planar for a few, and for the time being I like its punchiness better.

ZM50 Planar, both wide open:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0086.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0090.jpg


CV12: As I suspected from my NEX-5N results with it, and can very slightly see in M9 images, my copy is likely decentered. The left side of the image is not as sharp as the right side and needs to be stopped down to f/11...

At f/11:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0108.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0109.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0133.jpg

CV15, at f/11. In hindsight, these could have been done between f/5.6 and 8:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0116.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0119.jpg

Leica Summarit 90mm at f/2.8:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0131.jpg

21 Lux at f/2:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120118/20120118_0137.jpg




Jan 19, 2012 at 05:28 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.19 #15 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


rscheffler wrote:
...In case it wasn't clear, the last two images from the cemetery above are the same file. The first 'as shot' and the second after I did some dodging to reveal the structure. This is my usual approach with the M9, which does not like clipped highlight values, so I err on the side of underexposure and will pull areas of interest out of the darkness. The GXR seems to handle this fairly well, but in the image above, the revealed area is starting to show a fair amount of granularity. Personally, I don't mind graininess/noise within reason but my
...Show more

Using the GXR-M, I started to expose somewhat differently. With the M8 and the M9, I exposed the same way that I had with film in the M6, placing Zone V where I wanted it, which actually worked better with the M8 than with the M9 because the latter has a different metering pattern that didn't work well for me with wide-angle lenses. Other than that, with the GRD3 and the GXR and the A12/50 and the A12/28 camera units, I exposed with what "looked good" on the LCD, i.e. with the initial image that showed up on the LCD before it was "adjusted", if you know what I mean. All that worked fairly well.

Once I started using the GXR, I realized that I couldn't go by the look of the image on the LCD or the EVF, because the look of that image, obviously depended on the aperture that I was using: indeed, I saw that, for the first time, I had to look at the histogram. At the same time, I started using Raw Photo Processor (RPP) as my raw developer. The RPP manual is very interesting in what is states about the difference in exposing for film and for digital and about how light meters on digital cameras are set up (using film-type exposure) and how most raw developers, except RPP deal with this.

The upshot of all this is that now, in anything but bright, contrast light I "expose to the right" and in bright, contrasty light I expose for the highlights, as I would do for slide film. Hence, for the picture of which you show two version, I would have exposed more, but, then, I also may be going for a somewhat different look than you are.

I find that with the dynamic range of the GXR-M, my approach works well for me. Also, I often shoot in harsh light, as in the series below my signature here.

EDIT: BTW, some of these pictures, at least in this size JPGs on my monitor, look over-shapened, while the pictures you posted on the previous page did not — any differences in the sharpening you used?

—Mitch/Bangkok
Tristes Tropiques? No, They Have a Strip Mall in Chiang Mai Too



Jan 20, 2012 at 08:28 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.19 #16 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron; the 12mm looks pretty promising, decentering aside. I thought it would look more "awkward" with distortion and all.

I also find that exposing to the right (but not clipping the highlights) gives me the best results with the GXR and M mount. Not groundbreaking news probably.



Jan 20, 2012 at 02:13 PM
rscheffler
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p.19 #17 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Thanks Mitch for the info - very good to know and will definitely keep in mind as I learn the GXR. Regarding sharpening: I resize and output with Photo Mechanic which only allows sharpening to be either on or off. Therefore it's not possible to optimize for various types of subject content. I agree that some of these, particularly with the CV12 and 15, look a bit over sharpened. It's likely a consequence of the combination of wide angle lens and lots of fine details such as tree branches.

Henrik - I'll have to post a wide open image at some point to give an idea of the problem I have with the CV12. It's interesting that it's definitely usable on the M9, but with the APS-C crop, the smearing becomes much more noticeable and objectionable. I agree these look pretty good. It likely has a lot to do with subject matter as well as distance relationships between camera to subject to background. For these I didn't really push for an exaggerated perspective, which can so commonly be the case with such a lens.

A few from around the house yesterday:

http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120119/20120119_0003.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120119/20120119_0013.jpg
http://ronschefflerfm.s3.amazonaws.com/fmgxr/20120119/20120119_0034.jpg

50 Lux, CV35 f/1.2 II, 21 Lux, all were stopped down between 5.6 and 8.



Jan 20, 2012 at 03:59 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.19 #18 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ron, thanks for that focus advice.

I will post a few images later today from the interior shoot yesterday. The CV15 (not really wide enough for the cramped house I was in) was mostly used at ƒ8. It is amazingly sharp. And, to be expected, there is some moiré on the insect mesh.

What is everyone's favourite way to deal with moiré?

A more general comment is that the ergonomics of the GXR are better for this work than all my Nikons ever were: the tiltable EVF lets you put the camera/tripod in a corner and actually *see* what you are doing!. More later.



Jan 20, 2012 at 09:59 PM
anorphirith
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p.19 #19 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


j.liam wrote:
I recall that Lloyd Chambers did a comparison to the X100 in July and it didn't fare all that well (the review is in his paid subscription section). The novel idea of an interchangable sensor was nullified by the permanent marriage of a lens or adapter to a single sensor. It is in my purely avocational opinion, a dubious decision.

If the lens itself were detachable from the sensor plate, well, that would have been the key to broadening the appeal and maximixing the potential of the system.

I couldn't stop laughing while reading this



Jan 20, 2012 at 10:05 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.19 #20 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Kit: regarding moiré, I haven't had that much dealings with it yet. However, I ran into it the other day when shooting a pair of white loudspeakers, with a fine mesh grille. The moiré was quite slight (when viewed at full size) and I simply used desaturation on a brush to lessen/get rid of it. A new GXR.2 with a tilt LCD will be tops too for shooting interiors. Looking forward to that, whenever it might come. There is a camera show in Japan in Feb, might get more info then.

If anyone has a really good moiré post pro action that will not kill off detail I would urge that person to step up to the plate and give a tutorial.

anorpirith: I haven't read much about Lloyd Chambers, but clearly he doesn't get the GXR and it's potential.* Most people don't. For me it is like having multiple cameras on one base and I think it is brilliant. With the M mount it is actually a mirrorless system camera with "detachable lenses". The other modules just add to the system. I actually use all my modules, some less than others but they all fit in my work flow. I even regret selling the 24-72, I thought I did not want to hassle with small format sensors but for work I definitely have use for it.

Even next week, when Panasonic or Samsung will release a pink camera with a sluggish zoom with far too many MegaPixels on it my GXR and "obsolete" modules will churn out perfectly usable images with a near perfect user interface.

I just wish high ISO was as good as Fuji's X pro 1 seems to be. I am not sure I'd want it based on that alone though, it seems ridden with potential pit falls for legacy glass users. It might be one of the worst on the market for that lil' niche that we
are indulging ourselves in.

* Or did I miss a hidden joke somewhere



Jan 21, 2012 at 02:08 AM
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