p.3 #3 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
oneforsorrow83 wrote:
Jim - I agree with with what Joel wrote just below you. I think it comes down to the fact that just because I can make a technically perfect image with a new digital camera doesn't mean that an image I capture with a plastic camera with instant film is inherently any less good. It's just different. And yes, I do want my name attached to those images. But that's part of what I sell to my clients. I understand that one lens and no external lights is not what your clients pay you to do, but it certainly doesn't mean your not capable of it. Like Kurtis said, I'm sure you'd see things differently without lights. I definitely find that I do.
I guess my whole point is that I want to separate myself from everyone else who brings a camera to a wedding by creating shots that they could not do. That's why I take the time to set up lights at the reception, set up off camera lightning for my formals, and carry a bag full of lenses. I just can't see giving a client a photo that is technically speaking, worse than what uncle Bob is producing.
I suppose if I was a 20 something hipster shooting photos for other 20 something hipsters, then I could call it "art" and everyone would say "wow! cool photos!". But here in the south, we're a bit more traditional.
Maybe someday I'll find a client who doesn't care about beautiful images and simply wants pure PJ coverage and have a go at it. It would be kind of fun.
p.3 #4 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
It very much depends on your market and your specific clients. Someone has to fully know you are doing something along these lines before you do it...otherwise, you could end up with very unhappy clients. As for setting yourself apart, I find it hard to believe that any Uncle Bob produced anything looking like this. There is a clear distinction that I have always been able to see between intentional abandonment of technical procedures, and ignorance of how to properly operate a camera and compose images. It's like Van Gogh or any other painter who deified literal painting tradition to branch out and take a new approach to interpretation. It is not that they can't paint well or realistically, but they chose to creatively look at the world a different way. This goes for all art...music, dance, drama, literature, etc. Does not necessarily mean that it will be "successful" for most people if they tried to sell it to clients (how was Van Gogh's sale sheet while he was alive?), but that does not mean that it is any less artistic, thought out, and accurately executed.
Personally, I often feel trapped in the "this is what wedding photography is SUPPOSED to be" mold, and I am always ready to applaud those who have the guts to break out of the mold of doing what the majority of the population expects and demands.
I remember when I fist started to see little themes like this (the simple, raw, technically imperfect photos) popping up here and there in contemporary fine art photography, and I remember when I was on some very high profile portrait photographer's website and saw these portraits he posted that were totally out of focus. At first it did not make any sense to me, but as the years have gone on, it makes more and more sense to me every day.
I know to you it may not seem like art or anything special to you, but to me...there is a specific beauty in it that I rarely see in our part of the industry.
p.3 #5 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
nikonian - thanks. haley certainly killed that shot.
magallon - definitely laughed at the thought of all their pictures looking like that when they're 80
robin - yeah, nice shot. the MOB made it clear that she wanted NO pictures of orange fencing in any of the images. i was more than happy to oblige. also, apparently that's becoming a new high school campus in the next year or two. awesome for those kids who get to go there.
david - thanks man. appreciate the thoughts.
wojtek - there's lots of other coverage that i chose not to blog which i know has made the very demanding (3 page list of picture requests) very happy. but i totally get what you're saying, and the couple definitely was expecting (hoping for?) a set like this. otherwise i could have been in trouble
kronick - thanks man. that's very high praise. i appreciate it.
p.3 #6 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
jcolman wrote:
I guess my whole point is that I want to separate myself from everyone else who brings a camera to a wedding by creating shots that they could not do. That's why I take the time to set up lights at the reception, set up off camera lightning for my formals, and carry a bag full of lenses. I just can't see giving a client a photo that is technically speaking, worse than what uncle Bob is producing.
but Jim, is your competition the other people at weddings with a camera? heck, a lot of those uncle bobs probably have some OCF sitting at home. and could put them to good use. and have the same lenses. i just don't buy the argument that because there is a higher barrier of entry to a nice camera vs a cheap one or because you are the only one contractually allowed to bring lights a reason that those photographs are inherently more beautiful.
I suppose if I was a 20 something hipster shooting photos for other 20 something hipsters, then I could call it "art" and everyone would say "wow! cool photos!". But here in the south, we're a bit more traditional.
i'm not a hipster. neither were my clients. nor did i shoot their entire wedding on a holga. and i know things can be a little more traditional in the south, but i know several photographers off the top of my head who are in the south, very much non-traditional, and are killing it down there.
Maybe someday I'll find a client who doesn't care about beautiful images and simply wants pure PJ coverage and have a go at it. It would be kind of fun.
it seems that what you're saying here is that PJ images aren't beautiful. correct me if i'm wrong, but that's how it's coming across. again, i don't think that OCF and lots of lenses make an image beautiful. they can (and that's why i use them at times), and you've certainly made some beautiful images doing what you do. but necessary to creation of a beautiful image? i don't think so.
p.3 #7 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
Please don't think I'm hating on your photos. I'm not. Joel makes some good points about "being trapped by what wedding photography is supposed to look like" and many of these photos clearly transcend that mold.
My whole thing I suppose is that if your clients were expecting photos like these then that is great! I have no problem with that. PJ images can be quite beautiful in and of themselves because they are capturing true emotion. That is the beauty of PJ. I think you did a wonderful job in that regard on most of the images.
If your clients asked for an all PJ coverage then you did your job. I still question the slightly out of focus/overly flashed shots but to each his own. But In the over 40 weddings I've shot, I have yet to have a client tell me that they don't want any beautiful images of themselves, with gorgeous light. I think all wedding photographers strive to capture some wonderful PJ moments but I chose to make the images look as nice as I can. In my way of thinking, that is what separates me from uncle Bob.
p.3 #8 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
definitely not worried you're hating on the photos jim. and even if you were, that would be okay too. clearly this conversation has moved past the actual photos themselves into a more theoretical discussion of vision and philosophy. obviously we differ in what we want to create, and that's totally okay. i totally agree with your second to last sentence that most everyone wants pictures of themselves looking good in some beautiful light. but then you go back to separating yourself from uncle bob. again, i don't think he's your competition here. if you're selling yourself on why you can take better pictures than their uncle or their cousin then i think you're looking at it in the wrong way. what about all the other photographers out there who know how to use lights and make beautiful images as well? what separates your photography from theirs? in an industry becoming ever more saturated, what makes your vision "yours"? like you said, not trying to hate, just food for thought
p.3 #9 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
oneforsorrow83 wrote:
what about all the other photographers out there who know how to use lights and make beautiful images as well? what separates your photography from theirs? in an industry becoming ever more saturated, what makes your vision "yours"? like you said, not trying to hate, just food for thought
What I'm seeing in this over saturated industry is that there are more photographers who don't use external light than those who do. I can't tell you how many photographers I've run across while shooting in some of our more popular places, that have either no light or a single speedlight on their camera. I see very few photographers like myself who are carrying a light stand or two and know how to use off camera lighting. That is my vision.
That's not to say that one cannot get great images without resorting to off camera lighting but it's what separates me from the great unwashed masses.
p.3 #11 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
Jim I used to think exactly like you. But at the end of the day it comes down to the resulting images and my work is better for that type of subject when using natural lights because I can do more setups and more variety and better focus on posing etc than when I'm carrying lights.
I think you'd be surprised. You can either be known as the guy with lots of stuff who does good work or the guy who doesnt need much to make great images. Know what I mean?
Jun 16, 2011 at 12:23 PM
DingAnSich Offline • • • [X]
p.3 #12 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
p.3 #13 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
TTLKurtis wrote:
Jim I used to think exactly like you. But at the end of the day it comes down to the resulting images and my work is better for that type of subject when using natural lights because I can do more setups and more variety and better focus on posing etc than when I'm carrying lights.
I think you'd be surprised. You can either be known as the guy with lots of stuff who does good work or the guy who doesnt need much to make great images. Know what I mean?
I hear you my friend. However, I have to be brutally honest, I didn't think these were what I would call "great images". There were a few good images. My definition of great must be different than yours.
p.3 #14 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
8, 10, 12, 14. All great in my eyes. Personally, I would've liked to see 8 in b+w, though. I think the color distracts from the composition. But, I still like it a lot.
p.3 #17 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
jcolman wrote:
I hear you my friend. However, I have to be brutally honest, I didn't think these were what I would call "great images". There were a few good images. My definition of great must be different than yours.
I wasn't referencing this or any set of photos as a benchmark just a general statement. Sorry to threadcrap, to the OP, this has gone OT a bit.
Just trying to help you simplify Jim, I've found it freeing for me.
p.3 #19 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
oh, and on why i left the above photo in color vs converting it to b&w (as it was the only ceremony shot i included in color) i loved the gold tones in the organ. that was a big part. secondly, the mirror is the lightest part of the image, and in b&w, your eye goes right there. in color, i like the fact that you can look at the image, take it all in, and not realize what's going on the first time you see it. so ultimately, for me it was about color and levels of depth not immediately perceived
p.3 #20 · Rare! Photos of Haley Poulos in the Wild!
TTLKurtis wrote:
I wasn't referencing this or any set of photos as a benchmark just a general statement. Sorry to threadcrap, to the OP, this has gone OT a bit.
Just trying to help you simplify Jim, I've found it freeing for me.
I hear you and I understand. Believe me I do. I've started "freeing" myself a little more when I shoot, especially on the pre-ceremony shots.
I apologize to the OP for getting this thread off track but he did ask for some C&C and these were my thoughts.
One final thought. I am disappointed in Haley for being so camera shy. I'll bet she is a beautiful woman with a beautiful smile. Shame on her for hiding it.
While we were there, they were doing a bunch of renovations and there was scaffolding and orange fencing everywhere. 
