Found out that one of my competitors for the township football T&I contract is offering the following:
1 free CD with images for the league to use as they see fit
1 CD/DVD with select photo packages with images of the player for parents to print from
Free photo buttons with each package
Free framed poster-sized montage of individual images with league's logo to be raffled off at future events for fundraising.
Very large % back as donation to the league. They wouldn't tell me how much but did indicate it was larger than any other vendor. I offered 15%.
The one thing that struck me most is that the prices on packages with a CD/DVD are incredibly cheap. I also offer the league access to any of the images I take for the league's use and I also offer a free photo button with each order. I don't offer a framed photo montage but do provide them with poster prints that showcase individual players as well as advertise my company. I also guarantee that we will shoot at least one game for each team in the league.
I don't know if this was a national company such as Lifetouch or what the % of their donation is but as a small independent operator, I'm not about to erode my profit margin by that much. I'd be curious to know how this stacks up against your competition or even what you may offer league's for T&I contract.
Steve,
Way to much Free stuff in my opinion. Let them give away the profits and go out of bussiness. I give 10% back. Nothing else. I give them a great product at a fair price.
You can say it is way too much free stuff, but if it gets them the contract...it worked. One of the things I have learned is that small market sport teams tend to stay with a photographer once they have the contract, even if the product in later years is not that good. Therefore, the trick is to get your foot in the door. Your competitor might be aware of this and is willing to give up all profits for the first year in order to get that initial contract.
zappahead wrote:
Steve,
Way to much Free stuff in my opinion. Let them give away the profits and go out of bussiness. I give 10% back. Nothing else. I give them a great product at a fair price.
Nice thought but I suspect this is probably a large company that operates on volume and can afford these give aways. Once the season gets here I'll check with the league's web site. I'm sure that they will have something posted about who's taking the pictures this year and then I'll know for sure.
Typically I also offer no more than 10% back but in this case it's a pretty large league and knew that I would've easily made up the extra 5%.
After informing me that my company was not awarded the contract I was told that I was "more than welcome to still shoot the games and while we are more than happy to promote your company on our web site we cannot guarantee any sales." I love that. Sorry you didn't win but come on out anyway, shoot our games on spec, and I'm sure that our parents will love LOOKING at your pictures online. Uh, yeah, sure . . . sounds like a real great opportunity for me...
nathanlake wrote:
You can say it is way too much free stuff, but if it gets them the contract...it worked. One of the things I have learned is that small market sport teams tend to stay with a photographer once they have the contract, even if the product in later years is not that good. Therefore, the trick is to get your foot in the door. Your competitor might be aware of this and is willing to give up all profits for the first year in order to get that initial contract.
That is oh so true. In some leagues you can't pry a vendor out at all ... but once the league makes a change ... it's like a revolving door after that in many cases ... and then all they are looking for is low bid and as much as they can get for free.
Take for example my grandsons' AYSO league. They have been playing for three years, three different photographers. Each year the quality went down and the price went up, yet the league made more money. I bid on the job several years ago ... they said I wasn't even close ... I thought ok, I'm not going to work for free so I haven't bothered with a follow-up bid since.
butchM wrote:
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That is oh so true. In some leagues you can't pry a vendor out at all ... but once the league makes a change ... it's like a revolving door after that in many cases ... and then all they are looking for is low bid and as much as they can get for free.
Take for example my grandsons' AYSO league. They have been playing for three years, three different photographers. Each year the quality went down and the price went up, yet the league made more money. I bid on the job several years ago ... they said I wasn't even close ... I thought ok, I'm not going to work for free so I haven't bothered with a follow-up bid since. ...Show more →
Unfortunately, every guy with a DSLR (and some with P&S) think they can photograph Little League and make a few bucks. Most LIttle Leagues don't have a great amount of expertise or experience at picking a good photographer so anyone with a camera, a website and a proposal can compete for the position.
It would be nice if there were some form of "certification" that really held some weight in the business. A certification that the average person knew about and believed in. You would not have your appendix removed by someone that did not have a medical license because you trust that license to prove at least a minimum amount of competence. There is nothing like that in photography. I know PPA has a certification program, but it does no good if nobody other than photographers know about it. That puts the burden of educating the buyer on the photographer and that is not easy.
Personally I'm not willing to give everything away for free just to get my foot in the door. That's what started all this mess. While I do believe in remaining flexible and open to new opportunities I also believe that I determine how I run my business. So someone gives everything away the first year, whose to say that someone won't come in the following year and do the same. As previously stated, it's just a revolving door. Whoever is offering the deal of the year gets the contract. It's a no win for the photographers but they are the ones perpetuating it.
I'm in business to turn a profit. It seems like this industry is polluted with those who do this "just to have fun and pay for some new gear from time to time" or very large national corporations that can afford to give stuff away due to the sheer volume of business they do. Certification for our industry would be nice but probably unrealistic. Besides I think that for the consumer the proof is in the product and not the piece of paper hanging on the wall. Honestly I don't really see the leagues and organizations as the problem. Why wouldn't they want to get the most that they can for themselves. The problem is our industry itself and that doesn't appear to be a problem that is going away anytime soon.
Am I disappointed? Sure, who wouldn't be. But am I willing to get caught up in that revolving door? Not at all. I would rather spend more time looking for other opportunities, and other markets than chase those that are willing to continually take but are not willing to give back. I used to believe that once a photographer got in with a league, organization and/or school it could continue to be a lucrative and consistent stream of revenue provided that photographer kept his clients happy. However, happiness for these leagues is no longer necessarily dependent upon great products and great personalized services. We have become a disposable society in each and every way. At some point this may all come full circle and people may once again appreciate service over price. Only time will tell. Until then I have a business to run.
nathanlake wrote:
It would be nice if there were some form of "certification" that really held some weight in the business.
Presumably certification would just show that the individual could do the job competently. I don't see how that would help. When one of my relatives was in highschool a few years ago, and living at home, he was getting lots of local sports gigs, beating out seasoned pro's with mortgages and families to feed. But the thing is, he was GOOD. His shots were good, his prints were good, he was businesslike and punctual. He really delivered what he promised and his customers were very happy.
The thing is that he had low expenses - he lived at home and he had relatives, including me, helping him out with gear and stuff. I have no idea what ever happened to the old guys he was beating out for these gigs.
I also agree thats a lot of free stuff, I am a manager at a studio and we compete with lifetouch not only in sports but schools. When I first started with this company I was doing school shoots and sports but when I wasnt shoot I was on the phone and making call to schools. I call EVERY school in socal and due to me calling and my sales manager we picked up 20 school from it. We offer everything out of our studio and thats what our customers like. We give deals and have contracts with leagues that give every kid a free photo package. In the end for those deals it a simple package but the kicker is total sale for that comes out to $3.50 so we make nothing on the free packages which is league pay. We make our money on parent pays which is the best option. Make sure you offer your customers posters to promote there up coming session. We give 50 custom posters (11x17) for them to use to get sign ups, they like these little things. Also we have a new deal where we are giving out a set of tickets a sporting event of there choice to raffle off to help raise money. This one works great because they see it as money in the bank.
I have 80,000 kids I have to make sure get there photos taken but in the end its still profit.
nathanlake wrote:
You can say it is way too much free stuff, but if it gets them the contract...it worked. One of the things I have learned is that small market sport teams tend to stay with a photographer once they have the contract, even if the product in later years is not that good. Therefore, the trick is to get your foot in the door. Your competitor might be aware of this and is willing to give up all profits for the first year in order to get that initial contract.
So true. My daughters softball league in Tennessee uses some company out of Kentucky. This year when they did the team shots they used a highway as the background. Some of the team shots had cars driving by in the background. In addition most of the pictures were overexposed and looked like they used the kit lens. I had to grit my teeth to pay the $10 for a team photo.
Turn it away from being a giveaway oriented business to selling how you can be a partner with the league.
Anyone can scratch a check...is lifetouch et al going to be available when the club's travel or select team makes the state playoffs, or whatever special event they have? Some clubs will be willing to take that and work with it - and find value elsewhere than a check. Those are the winning organizations you want to work with down the road.
I have a bid coming up (I did action only in the spring for them and they loved my work) and my framing of the bid is going to be based around service, quality of work and innovation. There will be a community-based contribution included, but it won't be framed as percents.
dpmurray wrote:
Turn it away from being a giveaway oriented business to selling how you can be a partner with the league.
Anyone can scratch a check...is lifetouch et al going to be available when the club's travel or select team makes the state playoffs, or whatever special event they have? Some clubs will be willing to take that and work with it - and find value elsewhere than a check. Those are the winning organizations you want to work with down the road.
I have a bid coming up (I did action only in the spring for them and they loved my work) and my framing of the bid is going to be based around service, quality of work and innovation. There will be a community-based contribution included, but it won't be framed as percents....Show more →
While I certainly agree with what you're saying and is exactly the approach I've taken, the reality is that it is still all about who giving what and how much. I've heard countless parents and board members comment on the quality of my work, especially in comparison to the current vendor. I made myself accessible whenever needed and rearranged my schedule in order to shoot requested events. The current Little League vendor was not contracted for the All Star teams. As a result, I was asked to provide T&I for the All Stars. I jumped through hoops in getting the pictures taken, drug out a strobe, various light modifiers, and portable power all in an effort to take better shots and also to demonstrate the difference in what I was doing in comparison to the current vendor. Everyone loved the results. That was last year. Despite all the efforts to differentiate myself through time, effort, and energy they still decided to renew with last years vendor. I didn't immediately assume that the league was in the wrong however. I looked at each and every aspect of what I had done. Was there something I could've done differently, or did I do something wrong. Needless to say pictures, ordering and fullfillment all went on without any issues. I talked to parents and found out that they were more than satisfied with the process as well as the final products. So the ONLY conclusion I could reach was that the current vendor was willing to throw more discounted and free products at the league in order to retain the contract. I was also told that it wasn't that I didn't do an excellent job but that no one had complained about the current vendor so I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it.
One article reports Lifetouch can only offer 15% because of overhead.
Competing on price/giveback is going to leave you either broke from giving all your profits away or dead tired from having to work 3 times as many jobs.
How well you can work around this situation is going to come down to how you sell it - and how you brand yourself. Are you Budweiser, or Guiness? Store brand or name brand?
Can you market directly to parents to ask for you by name as a better product?
Jacobs (pictured left) finds volunteers among parents to shoot the pictures of kids. They then upload them to the Picateers site, where parents can view the shots and select the ones they want to buy. Then Picateers delivers the pictures to them for about the same cost as what Lifetouch charges. Prices on picture packages range from $10 to $90, with the average order about $38. Parents can order collage pictures or photo books.
Nice that people "volunteer" to work for a for-profit company.
dpmurray wrote:
Turn it away from being a giveaway oriented business to selling how you can be a partner with the league.
Anyone can scratch a check...is lifetouch et al going to be available when the club's travel or select team makes the state playoffs, or whatever special event they have?
Of course this makes a lot of sense ... however, when a league board makes a decision 3 months or more ahead of playoff season, this factors little in how they decide. Cash on the table, today ... will outweigh service down the road for a lot of folks.
Unfortunately, in this day an age, logic seems to take a back seat for many decision makers. Many who serve on the boards of youth sports organizations have little or no experience in the business world and make decisions based "feelings" and not good business sense. I'm not saying this is specifically wrong, just the way it is in many communities. Sometimes logic wins, sometimes not.
Mike Mahoney wrote:
One man's free is another man's profit .. ever heard of sign up with Vonage for three years and get the phone free?
Complaining about your competitors business & marketing practices is like complaining to your boxing opponent about hitting too hard.
Amen..........spoken like a true business man!
Our latest T&I package offers "Free" photo buttons. That doesn't mean I pull that money out of my personal bank account and buy them seperately. The button price is figured in the package deal and we actually make money on them.
Mike Mahoney wrote:
One man's free is another man's profit .. ever heard of sign up with Vonage for three years and get the phone free?
Complaining about your competitors business & marketing practices is like complaining to your boxing opponent about hitting too hard.
I don't think there is anything in my OP that indicates complaining. I've simply listed what the competition has offered, stated that I'm not eroding my market share in order to win this win, and asked what every else's experiences may be in this regard.
Yes, I also build the price of freebies and give-aways into my pricing but unfortunately a majority of these vendors are already priced well below where I'm comfortable going. That's MY business decision.
Sorry you didn't get the contract for the football league. There is big money to be made in the team and individual photos for high schools and youth sports....and some photographers will do anything to keep those contracts...anything!
Board members do not like to change and some are very loyal to vendors who have been with them for a long time...in some cases maybe too loyal. That's good if you have the contract but not so good if you don't.
This is why it's so vitally important to keep improving your photographic product and customer service on a yearly basis and to make sure you work closely with the athletic directors and board members so there is no chance that they will make a change.
I'd start looking for other youth leagues for next season...football, soccer, basketball, hockey, baseball or softball or find a high school and make a bid on their complete photo contract.
Have great examples of unique and high-quality photographic products ready to show the boards and begin the process right now. One of the large baseball leagues I shoot for has already asked me to do photos for 2009...same goes for all the others.
Also...I wouldn't get my hopes up when the "your photos are so much better than their's" comments are made by parents. You may have nice compliments but the other photographer has the contract and all the money.
I'd take it as an insult for the board to tell you to go ahead and shoot all the specualtive action you want ...but we've given the "guaranteed upfront money" to the other photographer.
You may think you're better than they are...but...to the board members...and that's all that counts...the other studio/photographer was awarded the contract.
