p.1 #1 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
Hey all.
I'm in the market for an M9 and have been keeping an eye out for camera's with full on sensor replacement. Since it's the original sensor fails. Simple I thought.
But now I've seen a few ads saying the "low pass filter" was replaced. Suggesting you will not have any problems down the road with the original sensor now. But the filter is not the sensor.
So could any leica knowledgeable folks comment on this seeming "new filter solution"? Here's an ad I saw on fb, just to give you an idea of what I'm seeing.
p.1 #3 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
It doesn't say with what kind of sensor the original CCD sensor was replaced. I would ask if the new sensor is still a CCD sensor (if so which one?) or even a CMOS one.
p.1 #5 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
As far as I know (from limited research), it is only the cover glass that corrodes, as it is something to do with the glass/glue used, and not the actual silicon of the sensor. So as long as the cover glass (often mistakenly referred to as low-pass filter) has been replaced with updated glass, and there was no existing corrosion, the problem should be solved.
p.1 #6 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
I'm sure Tim Lei is a responsible guy for the stuff he sells. Otherwise there's a risk of technicians not using good quality filter glass, which some will still corrode. This will inevitably create potential risk in the resale market if no form of evidence that the filter glass is with proper filter glass.
I'm shooting with such M9 at the moment which I got for the price lower than what's shown here which to me worth taking the risk. YMMV.
p.1 #7 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
pointbob wrote:
Thanks but that does not explain how a low pass filter extends the life of an M9 which still has the original sensor.
The issue isn't the sensor, but a component of the entire sensor assembly, namely the front filter stack.
Since replacing the filter stack is a highly invasive repair, Leica always replaced the entire sensor. The front cover glass is bonded firmly to the sensor assembly and removing it is fairly high risk, so much so that I believe Kolari have a disclaimer that the repair can fail and cause a dead or damaged sensor.
A replaced cover glass is as good an alternative as a new sensor, although the issue there is the replacement will offer a slightly different colour transmission and spectral response compared to the original Leica/Kodak unit. This often would require the user to create a new colour profile for a RAW editor such as Lightroom. Perhaps ask Kolari for an M9 DNG sample to see how the replacement cover glass affects WB and colour. (assuming the above mentioned M9 has the cover glass replaced by them)
There is a lot of info out there regarding this topic. In my opinion, considering other cons of the M9, I would much rather recommend the M240 or later and leave any M9 family camera. But this choice is obviously at your discretion.
p.1 #8 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
hmzimelka wrote:
The issue isn't the sensor, but a component of the entire sensor assembly, namely the front filter stack.
Since replacing the filter stack is a highly invasive repair, Leica always replaced the entire sensor. The front cover glass is bonded firmly to the sensor assembly and removing it is fairly high risk, so much so that I believe Kolari have a disclaimer that the repair can fail and cause a dead or damaged sensor.
A replaced cover glass is as good an alternative as a new sensor, although the issue there is the replacement will offer a slightly different colour transmission and spectral response compared to the original Leica/Kodak unit. This often would require the user to create a new colour profile for a RAW editor such as Lightroom. Perhaps ask Kolari for an M9 DNG sample to see how the replacement cover glass affects WB and colour. (assuming the above mentioned M9 has the cover glass replaced by them)
There is a lot of info out there regarding this topic. In my opinion, considering other cons of the M9, I would much rather recommend the M240 or later and leave any M9 family camera. But this choice is obviously at your discretion....Show more →
Agreed, and basically the decision I came to when starting recently. For the price of a sensor replaced M9, you can get an M240. You have to really, really want the CCD sensor to go for the M9, or be willing to deal with corrosion to get it at a cheaper price. Wasn't worth it IMO.
p.1 #9 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
I have a low actuations M9 for sale here on FM with a Leica replaced sensor for sale at a "to sell" price as I have a M10-R - I have excellent feedback ..... just saying !!
p.1 #11 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
I've covered a bit of my experience (in LUF forum) after shooting with original M9 with corroded filter glass, M9 with newest ID15/16 sensor, and now M9 with replaced filter glass.
The replaced filter glass M9 gave me the most joy to shoot, for the most part when the exposure is just right I can just dump the DNG into lightroom then export as jpeg. Or else just need a little tweak in WB, EV, and sometimes flatter lighting I just boost a little contrast.
A couple of examples of untouched DNG (except EV raise):
PS: If you ask me the differences were just placebo, I really don't know. But I just shoot and load the DNG into LR and edit to taste. For sure this the replaced filter M9 give the best rendering that I never experienced before. Shown to my friend who actually shoot film and he made the classic comment - "it looks like slide film".
p.1 #12 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
Your post makes me want to compare and contrast a replaced glass camera. Who replaced the glass on your M9? I imagine the replacement glass manufacturer also may play a role but also can't imagine that there are many sources for the replacement glass.
jeffersoncasey wrote:
I've covered a bit of my experience (in LUF forum) after shooting with original M9 with corroded filter glass, M9 with newest ID15/16 sensor, and now M9 with replaced filter glass.
The replaced filter glass M9 gave me the most joy to shoot, for the most part when the exposure is just right I can just dump the DNG into lightroom then export as jpeg. Or else just need a little tweak in WB, EV, and sometimes flatter lighting I just boost a little contrast
p.1 #13 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
In the case of the M9 it is both. The sensor has no cover glass and instead the low pass filter was epoxied directly to the package.
In most cameras there is a clear coverglass and then the low pass filter. Most Sony sensors have a sandwiched pair of low pass filters with slightly different spectral cut for the best overall filtration.
BPsmith511 wrote:
As far as I know (from limited research), it is only the cover glass that corrodes, as it is something to do with the glass/glue used, and not the actual silicon of the sensor. So as long as the cover glass (often mistakenly referred to as low-pass filter) has been replaced with updated glass, and there was no existing corrosion, the problem should be solved.
p.1 #14 · M9 Sensor: is it "enough" to replace the Low Pass filter? Rather then the sensor itself?
Victor Santos wrote:
Your post makes me want to compare and contrast a replaced glass camera. Who replaced the glass on your M9? I imagine the replacement glass manufacturer also may play a role but also can't imagine that there are many sources for the replacement glass.
According to the last owner, he bought it from someone else too which it was replaced in Beijing.
Frankly speaking, at this point I strongly against anyone dipping into this murky water getting an M9, everything is pure gamble. I can't be sure if mine is really corrosion free. Then mine has classic problems - serious green magenta banding at shadows and high ISO (not just regular banding, but tartan-like, to be fair my ex-m9 with ID15/16 does that too to a slightly less extent), SD card lock error (simple remedy on mine).
