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Steve Spencer
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Re: How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
NikonClio64 wrote:


This is clearer. You do not use NIkon gear. You have no experience of the Nikon Z9, So you have zero images of your own, which demonstrate how the Z9 fails you. Nevertheless. a relatively obscure feature of the electronics brings you into a Nikon forum devoting a string of posts to condemn its capabilities.....

I recall early last year there were particular conditions identified that might cause slight banding in Z9 images. True to type, Sony trolls jumped on the reports to condemn the Z9 and bash Nikon in general. Apart from leaf shutters, Mechanical shutters have always struggled with banding under certain artificial lighting conditions, which is then very challenging to fix - if at all.

Sony trolls and other Nikon bashers are also unlikely to know Nikon updated the firmware to mitigate such issues in the Z9 under artificial lights to tune shutter speed to a particular frequency of the light source. So once again Nikon engineers delivered an innovation exploiting fine tuning in the electronic shutter to solve such studio challenges. Obviously the informed Z9 owners who actually use the camera know the solution for stills and videography under LEDs etc

Reliable reviews and technical manuals explain why the fully electronic Z9 shutter has no problems for Pro photographers relying on the Nikon Z9 for income. Same applies to sports Pro in stadiums at night - such as the rank and file of Agence France-Presse, who collaborated with Nikon engineers to develop and test the Z9 (following up on their previous inputs developing and testing the D6 etc). All features considered, the Nikon Z9 is yet another of Nikon's robust, weatherproofed professional ILC, which has taken digital photography to a new standard.

First and foremost, the fully electronic shutter is proof of concept, launching Nikon's new direction in engineering its cameras. This fact might well threaten camera-brand puritans prone to Nikon induced insecurity.

Significant cost saver in manufacture, and enables the full house of imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc. As already mentioned Nikon exploited the freed up design space in the 16mm Z mount flange for the mechanical protector - yet another key innovation from Nikon. There's obviously no shutter slap; reliable Silent-Shooting at the fastest shutter speeds 1/32000 etc etc

For Z9 owners relatively new to the camera, who might be mislead by the trolling on image banding etc - here are links to reliable informed advice, and also Thom Hogan's ebook on the Nikon Z9

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z9/5

https://blog.kasson.com/z9/how-fast-is-the-z9-shutter/

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66343541





Once again you are very mistaken on a number of levels. I am not trolling or bashing. I am only discussing misinformation in a post you made. Overall I am a big fan of both Nikon and the Z9. My posts about the Z9 generally are by far more positive than anything else.

I have been shooting primarily electronic shutter since 2017. Yep almost about years now.

I have spent a good deal of time shooting on the Z9. You may be surprised by how early this started. There are those on this site who know.

By the way features like "imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc." have nothing to do with deleting the mechanical shutter. They are a function of the speed of a stacked sensor, and the ability to shoot with electronic shutter. All of the mechanical shutter optional cameras have the potential to do this as evidenced by such implimentations in cameras that do offer an optional mechanical shutter. Once again you confuse the ability to shoot with electronic shutter with the inability to shoot with mechanical shutter. They are independant of each other.

I am fully aware of each and every one of the firmware updates that have been released for the Z9. When the Z9 was first released it was lacking some core functionality inportant to shooting without a mechanical shutter. The competition pretty much all offered these features in their stacked sensor cameras prior to the Z9 release. This has been acknowledged by many including Nikon itself. This is the reason for the firmware updates you reference. What you fail to acknowledge is that the functionality released in the firmware doesn't adress all of the defeciencies in shooting ES in some situations. This is true of all implimentations, from all the companies. That is the only reason the other companies retain the option of mechnaical shutters in their cameras. Nikon is the only one who doesn't. It is my opinion that this constitutes a deletion, and offers zero advantage over the cameras that offer mechanical shutter as an option. That is all, no more sinsiter an adgenda than that.

You seem to have lost sight of the reason we are having this discussion at all. You made the claim that this lack of a mechanical shutter in the Z9 somehow proved that Nikon designed their own sensor. It is my position that this is no indication of that.

The ability to shoot without a mechanical shutter without losing too many features, and without producing too many artifacts, is an inherant capability of all stacked sensors. This is because of the fast scan times of stacked sensors. This is not a Nikon innovation. It has been done by many camera companies prior to the Z9, and for many years now. A company can buy off the shelf Sony (and other) stacked sensors with this capability. That is the point of this discussion regarding your false claim on the subject.

By the way, the articles you reference deal only with a single problematic light source in the frame/enviornment. When there are multiple such light surces the availbel timing functions don't fix it. You can only tune to the frequency of a single source. At that point the proper solution is to revert to a mechanical shutter. It also doen't address every situation perfecty, but it reduces the problems in a significant way. That is why I didn't say that Nikon's shutterless imlimentation is inherently bad. I said it wasn't my favorite, and I prefered others. Once again, that is not bashing or trolling. Throwing those term around sloppily weakens their meaning for when it is truely happening.



Steve,

Although it is true that any camera with both a mechanical and a electronic shutter could set up the electronic shutter in the same way as a camera with just a mechanical shutter (if they have similar sensor scan speeds), in practice the capabilities of the electronic shutter are likely to diverge over time. A camera with only an electronic shutter is going to develop firmware to try to address any problems that arise with the electronic shutter. That is the only way they can address the problems. In contrast a camera with both an electronic shutter and a mechanical shutter can just let people switch to the mechanical shutter without ever developing a solution to the problems that emerge with the electronic shutter.
For example, I expect that the Z9 will develop even better abilities through software to deal with the cycle speed of LED lights. I expect the A1 won't bother with such refinements because they rarely occur and people can always solve the problems by switching to the mechanical shutter. For example, I can easily imagine a Z9 software upgrade that lets you test a bunch of different scan speeds and examine the tests for banding. This could really help even with mixed LED lighting as through this process you could find a speed that works with multiple frequencies. This feature would be unlikely to be developed for the A1 as users could just switch to the mechanical shutter. And, importantly, if you needed to shoot in mixed LED light *and* you needed to shoot silently in this rare situation the Z9 would have an advantage.
I think at this point the advantage of the mechanical shutter and the potential of the advantage of the electronic only shutter are only going to come up in quite rare situations. What we are hearing from the Nikon Pros is that the situations where the electronic only shutter of the Z9 is problematic with the current firmware are so rare that it doesn't affect their work.

I have yet to see evidence (i.e., pictures) where an A1 worked (keep in mind that banding can occur sometimes with a mechanical shutter--it is just really rare. I certainly have gotten banding, albeit very rarely, with a mechanical shutter on both MILCs and DSLRs and it typically has been in the mixed light environment you point to above) and a Z9 did not. Without such evidence to me this argument about rare events without actual evidence is just a tempest in a teapot and posturing by people wanting to say their camera is superior. In real life I think that the advantage of having a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter is likely to only matter in pretty unusual circumstances. For the few people that encounter these unusual circumstance fairly often then by all means get a camera with a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter. Even working pros like sjms, however, who shoots in a lot of different lighting situations and shoot a lot seem to report zero real world problems. That to me suggests that the numbers of people who truly need a mechanical shutter are few and far between and people who have both shutter are mostly pointing to a hypothetical advantage and not an advantage in actual practice.



Mar 19, 2023 at 06:25 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
Re: How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
NikonClio64 wrote:


This is clearer. You do not use NIkon gear. You have no experience of the Nikon Z9, So you have zero images of your own, which demonstrate how the Z9 fails you. Nevertheless. a relatively obscure feature of the electronics brings you into a Nikon forum devoting a string of posts to condemn its capabilities.....

I recall early last year there were particular conditions identified that might cause slight banding in Z9 images. True to type, Sony trolls jumped on the reports to condemn the Z9 and bash Nikon in general. Apart from leaf shutters, Mechanical shutters have always struggled with banding under certain artificial lighting conditions, which is then very challenging to fix - if at all.

Sony trolls and other Nikon bashers are also unlikely to know Nikon updated the firmware to mitigate such issues in the Z9 under artificial lights to tune shutter speed to a particular frequency of the light source. So once again Nikon engineers delivered an innovation exploiting fine tuning in the electronic shutter to solve such studio challenges. Obviously the informed Z9 owners who actually use the camera know the solution for stills and videography under LEDs etc

Reliable reviews and technical manuals explain why the fully electronic Z9 shutter has no problems for Pro photographers relying on the Nikon Z9 for income. Same applies to sports Pro in stadiums at night - such as the rank and file of Agence France-Presse, who collaborated with Nikon engineers to develop and test the Z9 (following up on their previous inputs developing and testing the D6 etc). All features considered, the Nikon Z9 is yet another of Nikon's robust, weatherproofed professional ILC, which has taken digital photography to a new standard.

First and foremost, the fully electronic shutter is proof of concept, launching Nikon's new direction in engineering its cameras. This fact might well threaten camera-brand puritans prone to Nikon induced insecurity.

Significant cost saver in manufacture, and enables the full house of imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc. As already mentioned Nikon exploited the freed up design space in the 16mm Z mount flange for the mechanical protector - yet another key innovation from Nikon. There's obviously no shutter slap; reliable Silent-Shooting at the fastest shutter speeds 1/32000 etc etc

For Z9 owners relatively new to the camera, who might be mislead by the trolling on image banding etc - here are links to reliable informed advice, and also Thom Hogan's ebook on the Nikon Z9

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z9/5

https://blog.kasson.com/z9/how-fast-is-the-z9-shutter/

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66343541





Once again you are very mistaken on a number of levels. I am not trolling or bashing. I am only discussing misinformation in a post you made. Overall I am a big fan of both Nikon and the Z9. My posts about the Z9 generally are by far more positive than anything else.

I have been shooting primarily electronic shutter since 2017. Yep almost about years now.

I have spent a good deal of time shooting on the Z9. You may be surprised by how early this started. There are those on this site who know.

By the way features like "imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc." have nothing to do with deleting the mechanical shutter. They are a function of the speed of a stacked sensor, and the ability to shoot with electronic shutter. All of the mechanical shutter optional cameras have the potential to do this as evidenced by such implimentations in cameras that do offer an optional mechanical shutter. Once again you confuse the ability to shoot with electronic shutter with the inability to shoot with mechanical shutter. They are independant of each other.

I am fully aware of each and every one of the firmware updates that have been released for the Z9. When the Z9 was first released it was lacking some core functionality inportant to shooting without a mechanical shutter. The competition pretty much all offered these features in their stacked sensor cameras prior to the Z9 release. This has been acknowledged by many including Nikon itself. This is the reason for the firmware updates you reference. What you fail to acknowledge is that the functionality released in the firmware doesn't adress all of the defeciencies in shooting ES in some situations. This is true of all implimentations, from all the companies. That is the only reason the other companies retain the option of mechnaical shutters in their cameras. Nikon is the only one who doesn't. It is my opinion that this constitutes a deletion, and offers zero advantage over the cameras that offer mechanical shutter as an option. That is all, no more sinsiter an adgenda than that.

You seem to have lost sight of the reason we are having this discussion at all. You made the claim that this lack of a mechanical shutter in the Z9 somehow proved that Nikon designed their own sensor. It is my position that this is no indication of that.

The ability to shoot without a mechanical shutter without losing too many features, and without producing too many artifacts, is an inherant capability of all stacked sensors. This is because of the fast scan times of stacked sensors. This is not a Nikon innovation. It has been done by many camera companies prior to the Z9, and for many years now. A company can buy off the shelf Sony (and other) stacked sensors with this capability. That is the point of this discussion regarding your false claim on the subject.

By the way, the articles you reference deal only with a single problematic light source in the frame/enviornment. When there are multiple such light surces the availbel timing functions don't fix it. You can only tune to the frequency of a single source. At that point the proper solution is to revert to a mechanical shutter. It also doen't address every situation perfecty, but it reduces the problems in a significant way. That is why I didn't say that Nikon's shutterless imlimentation is inherently bad. I said it wasn't my favorite, and I prefered others. Once again, that is not bashing or trolling. Throwing those term around sloppily weakens their meaning for when it is truely happening.



Steve,

Although it is true that any camera with both a mechanical and a electronic shutter could set up the electronic shutter in the same way as a camera with just a mechanical shutter (if they have similar sensor scan speeds), in practice the capabilities of the electronic shutter are likely to diverge over time. A camera with only an electronic shutter is going to develop firmware to try to address any problems that arise with the electronic shutter. That is the only way they can address the problems. In contrast a camera with both an electronic shutter and a mechanical shutter can just let people switch to the mechanical shutter without ever developing a solution to the problems that emerge with the electronic shutter.
For example, I expect that the Z9 will develop even better abilities through software to deal with the cycle speed of LED lights. I expect the A1 won't bother with such refinements because they rarely occur and people can always solve the problems by switching to the mechanical shutter. For example, I can easily imagine a Z9 software upgrade that lets you test a bunch of different scan speeds and examine the tests for banding. This could really help even with mixed LED lighting as through this process you could find a speed that works with multiple frequencies. This feature would be unlikely to be developed for the A1 as users could just switch to the mechanical shutter. And, importantly, if you needed to shoot in mixed LED light *and* you needed to shoot silently in this rare situation the Z9 would have an advantage.
I think at this point the advantage of the mechanical shutter and the potential of the advantage of the electronic only shutter are only going to come up in quite rare situations. What we are hearing from the Nikon Pros is that the situations where the mechanical only shutter of the Z9 is problematic with the current firmware are so rare that it doesn't affect their work.

I have yet to see evidence (i.e., pictures) where an A1 worked (keep in mind that banding can occur sometimes with a mechanical shutter--it is just really rare. I certainly have gotten banding, albeit very rarely, with a mechanical shutter on both MILCs and DSLRs and it typically has been in the mixed light environment you point to above) and a Z9 did not. Without such evidence to me this argument about rare events without actual evidence is just a tempest in a teapot and posturing by people wanting to say their camera is superior. In real life I think that the advantage of having a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter is likely to only matter in pretty unusual circumstances. For the few people that encounter these unusual circumstance fairly often then by all means get a camera with a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter. Even working pros like sjms, however, who shoots in a lot of different lighting situations and shoot a lot seem to report zero real world problems. That to me suggests that the numbers of people who truly need a mechanical shutter are few and far between and people who have both shutter are mostly pointing to a hypothetical advantage and not an advantage in actual practice.



Mar 19, 2023 at 05:47 AM





  Previous versions of Steve Spencer's message #16197118 « How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors? »

 




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