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Archive 2011 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s const...

Paul Buff
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Todd56 wrote:
But, is the Einstein not 1/13000s? Why 1/10000s? I'm pretty sure you posted how fast it is compared to anything else.
Ain't you the guru super technical guy who knows it all and more who comes here to help us? I'm just a user and dumb as per your say so I'll count on you to tell me what the Scoro does both for the 3200 and the 1600packs with your original 1/8000s.
So you did understand my question in the first place and choose your own route. Interesting.
Gee, I'm wondering why I should wonder about ws, I'm so dumb!

Indeed you appear to be dumb . . . from your posts here. I provided the complete detail of Einstein power VS duration, and resulting color temperatures in both modes. Can't you read? Where are your equivalent numbers for other systems?

Indeed, EinsteinAction Mode t.1 times are 1/13,514 at 2.5WS, 1/12,579 at 5WS, 1/11,579 at 10WS, 1/11050 at 20WS, 1/10,417 at 40WS, 1/6050 at 80WS, 1/3514 at 160WS, 1/2041 at 320WS and 1/568 at 640WS. I have verified these times to be accurate with oscilloscope traces, exposures with calibrated spinning wheel and with proprietary flash duration metering equipment that measures accumulated flashpower VS time with extreme accuracy.

I can continue to prove real information as long as you can continue to post non-information, or until Fred decides to keep the real info and delete the BS, or vice versa.

Apr 09, 2011 at 10:28 PM

Todd56
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Crash10 wrote:
Why do you have to take anything Paul says as gospel? If you haven't clued in yet the basis of this thread is based on a Alien Bee independent test....people are testing the #$%%^ out of his gear.

The weird @@#$ is when you claim Paul is bashing Broncolor by saying the Grafits go to 1/8000 when your own link claims 1/7500 tops...

I'm not surprised you're melting caps, dude.

Alien Bee is in there now?

The real weird @@#$ is why are we talking about the Grafit here. The current top of the line is not the Grafit. With your consistency I have to assume this is intentional. But if you want to talk about the Grafit, know that it took 15years for any competition to reach that level. I don't see how calling for 1/75000s would be trashing a product so ahead of it's time. And no, I'm not the guy who wrote 1/8000s for the Grafit.

@Alex
I'm trying to go again as they want me to but keep calling me as soon as I do (very confusing, I'll admit), but I'll be on the look for your future tests. Sorry for the mess on this threat, some people carry only partial info and are not allowing others to ask relevant questions. I think if you are going to test for short flash duration it's important to know what your power output options are for anythings that's called in the discussion, not just speedlites especially when the main topic is not about them. When you get your Bron if it's a Grafit, you'll notice that there is almost a full stop of range before your shortest duration drops. You may find that important on a shoot.

@Buff
I got my answers on page 2, no need to confirm it over and over.

Apr 10, 2011 at 07:21 AM

Deezie
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

This nitpicking is just really absurd. For the majority of photographers, splitting hairs on the above-referenced specs means very little in real world usage. I haven't used the Einsteins, but the general specs in terms power and control are impressive given its relative cost. I really like the small footprint and aesthetics of the light itself. I'm not a big fan of the 7" reflector (or whatever size it is), but I imagine most photographers looking to use monolights would be rather pleased to have this in their bag.

Those who are using packs probably wouldn't consider this light, nor any other brand on monolight because their preference and workflow is packs and heads.

Apr 10, 2011 at 09:34 AM

Akoloskov
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

@Todd56

I've added speedlites test more to compare color consistency, not to test flash duration: I knew that Einstein will beat them in power at usable freezing flash duration range (~3000 t.1 and shorter)

I did not really get what you guys where trying to proof: I am very practical guy, bare numbers is not that interesting for me.

I general, without any tests I know that broncolor scoro or grafit will give me more power output in constant color mode v.s Einstein at the same /short/ flash duration. This is too obvious to test, 3200ws v.s 640ws. Price suggest the same: $15 K (pack+head) v.s $500 monolight. Color consistency, in both modes is what will be really interesting.

I was working with liquid splash photography for a several yeas, and Einsteins is a true gift for me: nothing even close was/is on the market. The best I had for such work is 4 canon speedlites.

In (hope nearest) future, when my shooting rates will be multiplied several times, I'll be using broncolor, simply becasue it will give more freedom in a studio.
But to get into that area, I need Einsteins: without Paul's monolight it will be hundred times more problematic.

Thank you all for the discussion:-)

Apr 16, 2011 at 09:22 PM

Paul Buff
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Todd56, you have long ago lost any credibility here and I can't understand why Fred allows you to continue to trash everyone and contribute nothing. So I'll raise the bar to the point of probably getting kicked out myself . . .
Fred, I say this after dozens of pleas for you to enforce your own forum rules. If you prefer to continue on that track and get rid of me, I sure won't be missing anything by being gone.

What is it Fred . . . me or hateful libelous rule breaking posters that ruin the forum for serious information seekers? I suspect I know your answer from past actions and non-actions.

Anybody else have anything to say on this subject other than Chill out Buff?

As for Scoro A2 1600, last week its shortest t.1 was listed as 1/7500. This week it's back to 1/8000 . . . what I cited in the first place. But more important, its Full Power t.1 time is an agonizingly slow 1/150 second, while the 3200WS version is 1/85. So it's not likely it will produce a better t.1 VS WS number than Einstein except perhaps in a narrow slice of the power curve around 200 to 500WS.

Again . . . I have given all the power VS duration points for Einstein and asked you, or someone else, to provide the same for Scoro or Grafit or any other product. That issue continues to be ignored in favor of bashing posts.

This is not about Alienbees, nor is it about one product being preferred to another, price etc . . . it is about the technical specs and the core nature of IGBT lights. Go back to the first post and look.

Apr 16, 2011 at 10:43 PM

kdphotography
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Chill out, Paul.

I wish I had known about the "hide me" button earlier----it would have made it so much easier to follow an otherwise helpful thread, than to deal with the extraneous bullshit.

I may have to pick up a couple Einsteins.

ken

Apr 17, 2011 at 08:27 AM

Marcin Harla
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Paul Buff wrote:
t.5 and must be lengthened by a factor of three to get t.1).

Lot's of technical mumbo jumbo here, hehe, but good post.

One thing got me curious though.

Paul, you are an engineer so if you (or anybody) could explain I'd appreciate it.
I often read that to obtain (t 0.1) times, (t 0.5) times need to be multiplied by 3. Simple enough.
However Broncolor lists (t 0.5) time to be 1/12000 or (t 0.1) to be 1/8000 for the Scoro.

Shouldn't the (t 0.1) time be 1/4000 then?
To get 1/8000 (t 0.1) Scoro should have 1/24000 (t 0.5).

Please explain.

Apr 17, 2011 at 11:48 AM

E-Vener
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

The Scoro is using a bit different technology . To understand what Broncolor's engineers are doing you really need to sit down with Broncolor tech reps and have them go over the flash duration curves and measurements to understand it. In some aspects they feel that the ISO standards for measuring flash duration at t0.5 and t0.1 don't accurately define flash duration for the Scoro.

Also with IGBT gating once it is invoked (as Paul Buff and Broncolor both have demonstrated and explained) t0.1 and t0.5 times are pretty much identical.

Apr 17, 2011 at 01:05 PM

Paul Buff
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Marcin Harla wrote:
Lot's of technical mumbo jumbo here, hehe, but good post.

One thing got me curious though.

Paul, you are an engineer so if you (or anybody) could explain I'd appreciate it.
I often read that to obtain (t 0.1) times, (t 0.5) times need to be multiplied by 3. Simple enough.
However Broncolor lists (t 0.5) time to be 1/12000 or (t 0.1) to be 1/8000 for the Scoro.

Shouldn't the (t 0.1) time be 1/4000 then?
To get 1/8000 (t 0.1) Scoro should have 1/24000 (t 0.5).

Please explain.

Very intelligent question . . . complex answer:

The equation t.1 = 3X t.5 applies only to "standard" flash units that rely on firing the flash and allowing the capacitors to discharge completely. This occurs naturally, generally following the exponential "RC time constant" curve illustrated here http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/3d.htm

Notice here the capacitors discharge exponentially to 63% of their initial voltage charge in 1 time constant, they continue to discharge to 63% of 63% (39.7%) in two time constants, and further continue to 63% of 39.7% (25%) in three time constants. The point is the discharge rate becomes slower and slower as the capacitor discharges toward zero, and the first 50% of the charge (t.5) is dissipated in approximately 1/3 the time that it takes to dissipate 90% of the charge (t.1). (t.1 means 1/10 of the the initial charge remains.) Beyond the t.1 time the ever-slowing discharge continues, so there is a t.05, t.025 point, etc.)

But this no longer applies when IGBT shutoff is introduced, as the ever-slowing discharge curve is interrupted at the point the IGBTs abruptly shuts of the ever decreasing "tail" of the curve. Because of this, the ratio of t.5 to t.1 times in an IGBT system do not follow a fixed ratio, but is variable, and dependent on at what point the IGBT shutoff occurs. At very short IGBT induced flash durations, other issues including ionization time and anomalies in the absolute ideal RC time constant curve come into play.

So, indeed, the t/.5/t.1 ratio for an IGBT controlled Scoro, Grafit or Einstein is smaller than for a non-IGBT controlled system such as Profoto 7 series or 8 series flash, Elinchrom, WL, AB and virtually all others.

This is well illustrated by Broncolor at http://blog.bronimaging.com/2010/01/broncolor-scoro-enhanced-color-temperature-control-ectc/

Edited on Apr 17, 2011 at 02:03 PM · View previous versions

Apr 17, 2011 at 01:30 PM

Paul Buff
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

E-Vener wrote:
The Scoro is using a bit different technology . To understand what Broncolor's engineers are doing you really need to sit down with Broncolor tech reps and have them go over the flash duration curves and measurements to understand it. In some aspects they feel that the ISO standards for measuring flash duration at t0.5 and t0.1 don't accurately define flash duration for the Scoro.

Also with IGBT gating once it is invoked (as Paul Buff and Broncolor both have demonstrated and explained) t0.1 and t0.5 times are pretty much identical.

Ellis, I agree the standard ISO methods don't accurately represent actual real world results. I have worked out much more accurate methods that closely mirror actual camera results with circuitry that accurately accumulates light energy VS time (as does the camera) and thus yields exacting t.5, t.25, t.1 or t.anything times. I have shared this circuitry with Rob Galbraith, and have also created calibrated spinning wheels as a means to visually verify and correlate the results.

But I have to disagree the IGBT t.1 and t.5 are "pretty much identical". In any system, it takes less time to dissipate 50% of the power than to dissipate 90% . . . pure physics. My tests generally show IGBT times to generally be approximately 50 to 70% of t.1 times, but there is no rigid formula.

However, t.5 times don't really have much application in photography in that exposure at the t.5 point is only down 1f from the peak exposure, so the motion blur continues long after the t.5 time. Even t.1 is not an accurate predictor of blur since exposure at the t.1 point is still down only 3.3f . . . a moving white ball with a -3.3f blur still results in visible motion trail.

The saving grace for IGBT systems is the fact that absolute cutoff (t.00) is almost identical to t.1 time. In contrast, t.00 time in a conventional system is several times longer than t.1 time, so unpredicted blur is still present in many shooting situations. Stopping a moving white object without ghosts is a prime example.

Apr 17, 2011 at 01:56 PM

Marcin Harla
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Thank you for the explanation.

I have a follow up question.
I read a head to head review between Profoto 8a and Broncolor Scoro.
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S/Performance-Flash-Duration.html
Bron has an advantage at minimum power when it comes to flash duration, however photographing people I have more interest what happens when more power is used.
Profoto has very clear advantage there.

Not sure if Profoto uses IGBT method, but from reading previous posts it seems they use traditional capacitor switching. Theoretically Bron should kill it when it comes to FD but it doesn't (apart from at very low power levels).
Profoto lists (t 0.5) times to be 1/12000s so going by the rule (t 0.1) time should be around 1/4000s, correct?
Is Broncolor then a little over optimistic about their specs or is Profoto doing something different? From what I understand IGBT units should have a clear advantage across the range (except maybe at full power).

I'd love to see some more tests.

BTW, I'd love to try Einsteins, but I'm residing in Europe for a year and they are quite a bit more expensive here. Nevertheless, it's pretty amazing what PCB offers with Einstein, and when price is considered it's even more crazy

Apr 18, 2011 at 06:00 AM

kenyee
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Marcin Harla wrote:
Is Broncolor then a little over optimistic about their specs or is Profoto doing something different? From what I understand IGBT units should have a clear advantage across the range (except maybe at full power).

Profoto isn't IGBT...they're doing something different called PiPE. I searched for a while but couldn't find any technical explanation on this. Broncolor's blog did say that Profoto's PiPE tech causes blurring at lower power levels where some photographers were having a hard time freezing hair motion with it and had to switch to Scoro packs in the middle of a shoot, so it sounds like in real life, it doesn't work as well as Bronco's system...

It'd be funnier to see how well 30 ($15K/$500 each) Einsteins do vs. a $15K Scoro system

Apr 18, 2011 at 08:19 AM

Todd56
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

kenyee wrote:
It'd be funnier to see how well 30 ($15K/$500 each) Einsteins do vs. a $15K Scoro system

..."This is not about Alienbees, nor is it about one product being preferred to another, price etc . . . it is about the technical specs and the core nature of IGBT lights"...

Beside bashing a product I'd love to see how you would use your 30 lights on a real shoot. And I just want you to search for some of my older contributions on other threads. You would learn that I have suggested the Einstein to others on the forum. You always come with furtive little replies but believe me you are easy to read.

Apr 18, 2011 at 10:26 AM

Marcin Harla
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

I think in (or at least according to the link I posted) in real life Profoto may work better than Broncolor likes to admit.
When I say "in real life" I mean shooting people not some small studio work where low power is sufficient.
From what I understand PiPE system is not ideal at low power settings - if FD is important as it causes double ghosting. It doesn't matter as much as the power goes up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Broncolor sounds a little desperate IMO.
They have an edge in some applications while Profoto has an edge in different applications. Depends on what one needs. Each system has it's strengths and weaknesses, although the biggest weakness of Bron and Profoto is their price, lol.

I chose Profoto as I think their mobile generators are spectacular (Pro-B2/B3 specifically, but also Pro-7b and AcuteB are quite nice). Broncolor mobile line is a joke, especially if you consider their price. Even Elinchrom Ranger that is way less costly kills Broncolor mobile offerings. Hensel Porty L1200 is a gem of a pack, but wasn't out yet when I was building my system.
Broncolor probably has the edge in the studio though, although the difference is rather small I think. Horses for courses.

Anyway, while I'm heavily invested in Profoto I would be as happy with Broncolor. I wish Einstein was available sooner as I'd have a few units for sure, but they were backordered before I left to Europe. When I'll get back to the US I'm buying some for sure, cannot go wrong with them according to people that use them.

I totally agree that it would be fun to see what $12k worth of Einsteins can do against $12k Profoto 8a or Broncolor Scoro packs.
Heck, if one doesn't need more than 640Ws single Einstein gives Profoto and Broncolor packs good run for the money in some applications (FD, color consistency).

When it comes to medium power monolights Einstein is at the top of the hill at the moment, regardless of the price. That is impressive.

Apr 18, 2011 at 10:31 AM

Marcin Harla
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Todd56 wrote:
..."This is not about Alienbees, nor is it about one product being preferred to another, price etc . . . it is about the technical specs and the core nature of IGBT lights"...

Beside bashing a product I'd love to see how you would use your 30 lights on a real shoot. And I just want you to search for some of my older contributions on other threads. You would learn that I have suggested the Einstein to others on the forum. You always come with furtive little replies but believe me you are easy to read.

Hey Todd,
since you are quoting me, I don't remember us ever arguing. Or are you talking to kenyee?

Apr 18, 2011 at 10:35 AM

Todd56
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Marcin Harla wrote:
Hey Todd,
since you are quoting me, I don't remember us ever arguing. Or are you talking to kenyee?

I can't recall you coming up with an imaginary and unrealistic lighting set up on a forum and pretend making contribution to the benefit of others. You're cool, plus I see you have real hand on experience with more than one brand.

Apr 18, 2011 at 10:55 AM

Paul Buff
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

I would think a comparison of four Einsteins (2560WS) to a similar WS power pack and four heads would be quite realistic.

Apr 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM

sritri
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Apr 18, 2011 at 11:39 AM

Todd56
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

Paul Buff wrote:
I would think a comparison of four Einsteins (2560WS) to a similar WS power pack and four heads would be quite realistic.
4 VS 30. We are getting down on earth super fast. I don't have a problem with that.

Apr 18, 2011 at 11:49 AM

Todd56
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Paul C. Buff Einstein 640 in-depth flash duration test: action v.s constant color mode

sritri wrote:
Todd : Do you ever have anything constructive to say ? It is obvious you are here on a personal agenda, so why don't you just go away ?

BTW : I did hit the report button

The agenda thing, ...again... and with nothing constructive to say...

BTW did you see how Fred and I have been insulted? I guess you support that since you are complaining about me.

Apr 18, 2011 at 11:50 AM

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