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Archive 2010 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?

  
 
tetrode
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


In looking at the photos of the new PCB Vagabond Mini Lithium battery pack, one can't help but notice the "Made in USA" proclamation appearing on the unit's faceplate (VML Faceplate). However, it is my understanding that the VML's inverter, battery, and moldings were all sourced in China. If this is, in fact the case, I do not see how the VML can be labeled "Made in USA" and comply with Federal Trade Commission guidance:


"The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims

What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?

For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.

What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.

What substantiation is required for a Made in USA claim?

When a manufacturer or marketer makes an unqualified claim that a product is Made in USA, it should have — and rely on — a "reasonable basis" to support the claim at the time it is made. This means a manufacturer or marketer needs competent and reliable evidence to back up the claim that its product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S."


The guidance is very clear: "ALL SIGNIFICANT PARTS AND PROCESSING THAT GO INTO THE PRODUCT MUST BE OF U.S. ORIGIN" and "THAT IS, THE PRODUCT SHOULD CONTAIN NO - OR NEGLIGIBLE - FOREIGN CONTENT." I do not believe final assembly and testing meets this standard.

I try to "buy American" whenever possible and do look for the country of origin label on products. Is the labeling on the VML misleading or am I mistaken regarding the source of its components? I do hope it's the latter.

Dave F.



Dec 29, 2010 at 10:09 AM
Seanzky
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Hmmm... I have the same understanding as you, Dave, in terms of where the parts of the VML came from. I, too, have pondered on this issue since you last mentioned it. I don't think there's shame in where Paul Buff gets his parts, but he should label his products accordingly --as "Assembled in the USA" or otherwise. Fooling consumers will only diminish the trust and honesty he tries to build around his company.


Dec 29, 2010 at 10:32 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


How about "engineered and designed in the US"


Dec 29, 2010 at 11:22 AM
tetrode
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


PeterBerressem wrote:
How about "engineered and designed in the US"


Was it? Was the inverter designed by PCB or might it be a repackaged off-the-shelf component? If it was built (or tweaked) to PCB's specs by an offshore manufacturer, would that make it engineered in-house? Not really. Clearly, the battery wasn't engineered in-house. If I buy a Samlex pure sine wave inverter, an SLA battery, and a bag, and assemble them into a power supply, I don't think I could say I "engineered" anything; assembled, yes, engineered, no. In the case of the VML (again, assuming its parts are sourced offshore), perhaps "conceived and assembled in the USA" might be a more accurate declarative.

To cite guidance from the Federal Trade Commission one more time:

"U.S. content must be disclosed on automobiles and textile, wool, and fur products. There’s no law that requires most other products sold in the U.S. to be marked or labeled Made in USA or have any other disclosure about their amount of U.S. content."

As I read this (and it's just a layman's reading), there is most likely no requirement that the VML case say anything regarding country of origin or parts content. However, inasmuch as it does, it then has to play by the rules and it appears that it does not. My interpretation is that the Made in USA attestation is there as a marketing device rather than as an accurate representation of where the product's component parts originate. Again, I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong.

Dave F.

Edited on Dec 29, 2010 at 12:51 PM · View previous versions



Dec 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM
Seanzky
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


tetrode wrote:
My interpretation is that the Made in USA attestation is there as a marketing device rather than as an accurate representation of where the product's component parts originate. Again, I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong.

Dave F.


This is also how I interpreted it. After all, many of PCB's customers buy into his system to support "American made" products. Mr. Buff himself has said many times and takes pride in his products being made in the USA.



Dec 29, 2010 at 12:46 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


In my past dealings (official) with the federal gov't purchasing, the requirement to escape the penalty for import in contract bid consideration was that at least $1 more was spent on assembly/mfr, etc. stateside than was spent elsewhere, i.e $50 import/$51 stateside meant qualification as a U.S. based product for bid consideration purposes. This is a very loose explanation and I'm not current on the FAR rules, but it probably is pretty close to the situation.

After all, do you really think "Fat Free" Mayonnaise has no fat in it? The FTC simply set rules that each serving had to be less than .5 grams of fat (or something like that). Make the serving size small enough ... VOILA ... "Fat Free" Mayonnaise gets put on the label, even though it still has plenty of fat in it.

Made In USA ... I'm guessing very similar concepts in today's realm.

If Mr. Buff's U.S. based company (Tennessee) is compliant with USA rules about "Made In USA" (or following the premise of the FAR in the case of non-specific guidance elsewhere), then he shouldn't be bashed for it. Rather yell at the congressmen that pass the laws for the FTC, FAR, etc. He didn't make the rules ... only playing by them. I'm guessing he's not the only USA mfr playing by the same rules ... ... and I'll bet he didn't even lobby congress to make the rules that way, but I'm sure other USA "BIG BOYS" likely did. It's always ironic how investers and consumers love it when "Wall Street" does well, but then cry foul when they learn how it's being done.

By the time you put the cost in for engineering design, R&D, assembly personnel, benefits, facility overhead, storage, insurance and a whole lot more ... the cost of the components easily becomes less than 50% of the cost to MFR. What/how this is being "sliced & diced" with current legislation is something that needs additional research. I'd expect that Mr. Buff has already done so ... likely much more than any of us.

I suppose a complaint could be filed with the FTC to initiate an investigation if someone has sufficient legal cause / evidence against Mr. Buff.

BTW ... I'm Jonesin' for the VBM with two batteries on order just like everyone else.

Edited on Dec 29, 2010 at 03:02 PM · View previous versions



Dec 29, 2010 at 01:16 PM
Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


tetrode wrote:
it is my understanding that the VML's inverter, battery, and moldings were all sourced in China.


Is this your understanding or do you know this to be a fact?




Dec 29, 2010 at 01:41 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


I doubt you could even find an American made inverter or power supply. If they aren't made in or assembled by a contract manufacturer in China, Taiwan, or some other Asian country, then a lot of power supply and related products manufacturers are in Mexico now.


Dec 29, 2010 at 02:01 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Gregg Heckler wrote:
I doubt you could even find an American made inverter or power supply. If they aren't made in or assembled by a contract manufacturer in China, Taiwan, or some other Asian country, then a lot of power supply and related products manufacturers are in Mexico now.


Kinda like trying to find an American made camera ... aint' happenin' today.
Maybe not that bad, i.e. probably are some in the US. but still ...


Excerpt from: Complying with the Made In USA Standard, Federal Trade Commission, December 1998 (PDF linked from FTC current website page), i.e. same as Dave F.'s source.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard

Buy American Act — Requires that a product be manufactured
in the U.S. of more than 50 percent U.S. parts to be considered
Made in USA for government procurement purposes. For more
information, review the Buy American Act at 41 U.S.C. §§ 10a-
10c, the Federal Acquisition Regulations at 48 C.F.R. Part 25,
and the Trade Agreements Act at 19 U.S.C. §§ 2501-2582.


This PDF excerpt, like Dave F.'s posted from the FTC website (same source) is NOT the LAW. These excerpts are only a layman's representation of the law for the purpose of eaiser reading.

The LAW is: 41 U.S.C. §§ 10a-10c, 48 C.F.R. Part 25, 19 U.S.C. §§ 2501-2582
From here ... I'll leave it to the real lawyers.

@ Dave ... BTW, imo good call based on how the FTC website reads. I just know from experience that the LAW and it's legal interpretations can provide for some variance that might otherwise not be readily apparent from the simplified versions that exist in forms outside the statutes themselves ... and the combinations of the statutes can also make for some built-in loopholes as well.



Edited on Dec 29, 2010 at 02:54 PM · View previous versions



Dec 29, 2010 at 02:04 PM
Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Gregg Heckler wrote:
I doubt you could even find an American made inverter or power supply.


Probably not .. but always best to be absolutely sure before going too far with these type of discussions.



Dec 29, 2010 at 02:24 PM
tetrode
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Mike Mahoney wrote:
Is this your understanding or do you know this to be a fact?



I wrote it is my "understanding" for a reason. I did not write that I know this to be fact because I do not. I did write: "... or am I mistaken regarding the source of its components?" which should have answered your question right then and there.

Incidentally, the fact that Paul himself has repeatedly made a point of stating that his products are shipped by air rather than by sea (for example: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/953940/0#9035396) seems to pretty conclusively establish that parts aren't coming from Kansas.

Dave F.



Dec 29, 2010 at 02:37 PM
cordellwillis
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Oops....Wrong thread. Apparently this is one for attorneys to interpret.

I'll leave right now.



Dec 29, 2010 at 05:06 PM
Paul Buff
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


tetrode wrote:
Was it? Was the inverter designed by PCB or might it be a repackaged off-the-shelf component? If it was built (or tweaked) to PCB's specs by an offshore manufacturer, would that make it engineered in-house? Not really. Clearly, the battery wasn't engineered in-house. If I buy a Samlex pure sine wave inverter, an SLA battery, and a bag, and assemble them into a power supply, I don't think I could say I "engineered" anything; assembled, yes, engineered, no. In the case of the VML (again, assuming its parts are sourced offshore), perhaps "conceived and assembled in the USA" might be
...Show more

First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. That includes the inverter (Indeed, it is not a stock "Samlex" inverter (Samlex doesn't make inverters by the way, they are made by BA Power in Taiwan, as the Mini inverters. We did extensive redesign to BA Power's standard inverters in order to achieve the performance and reliability we wanted.

Same with the batteries . . . The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.


The VML back panel bears the clear statement "Contains components from various countries of origin".


Let me pose the question: If you took a Delco (American brand) battery, an Apple iPhone, a Texas Instruments processor, designed and built a customer security system controller board in Kansas, assembled, tested boxed and shipped the product in your factory in Boston from these components, where would you say it was manufactured? Even considering that the battery, iPhone and processor were actually made in other countries.

From this jumping off point, I direct your attention specifically to Elinchrom's website link where it is clearly stated their products are manufactured in Switzerland. Yet it is widely known that some of their products . . . D Lite and, I believe, BX500 series at least, are completely manufactured in India and likely never see Switzerland at all.

http://www.elinchrom.com/corporate.php
"From our headquarters and manufacturing facility overlooking Lake Geneva, we export Elinchrom studio flash around the world."

Do you think Manfrotto stands are manufactured in Italy or that Chryslers are Made in USA, or that Photoflex umbrellas or just about any other umbrella you can name aren't made in China? And just look at that Chinese battery and Taiwan inverter in the Profoto "Swedish" BatPack.

Perhaps Peter has the best approached . . . that used by Apple: "Designed by Apple Computer in Cupertino, CA" with no mention of where it was actually made, boxed, tested and shipped from.



Dec 30, 2010 at 12:58 AM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


/thread


Dec 30, 2010 at 03:35 AM
Tobi.
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Paul Buff wrote:
From this jumping off point, I direct your attention specifically to Elinchrom's website link where it is clearly stated their products are manufactured in Switzerland. Yet it is widely known that some of their products . . . D Lite and, I believe, BX500 series at least, are completely manufactured in India and likely never see Switzerland at all.

http://www.elinchrom.com/corporate.php
"From our headquarters and manufacturing facility overlooking Lake Geneva, we export Elinchrom studio flash around the world."

They don't state that ALL their products are manufactured in Switzerland. All they say is that they've got a house in Renens where they do produce studio flashes which then are shipped all over the world. Which is probably true, since their higher end monoheads are made in Switzerland.

The D-Lites are clearly labelled as 'Made in India', it's written on the sticker with all the technical data underneath the main body.
Do you think Manfrotto stands are manufactured in Italy
I've got at least one that's labeled as 'Made in China'.

Tobi



Dec 30, 2010 at 03:37 AM
howardm4
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Just about every Apple product is physically labeled as 'Designed by Apple in California' but the *box* it comes in reveals its country of origin (China).

This is really a slow week for some people.



Dec 30, 2010 at 07:54 AM
Seanzky
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Aren't the FXRi strobes the ones made in India? Not the BXRi? I remember looking into buying FXRi strobes from India to save a few bucks but decided not to because it wouldn't be covered by Manfrotto. When I asked if the eBay seller from India had any BXRi for sale, he said they didn't made it in Indian or Chinese factories.

I'm just speculating here, but maybe it's only American manufacturers playing by their own rules (i.e. label our products however we want) because there's not much products "Made in USA" these days.



Dec 30, 2010 at 07:55 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


howardm4 wrote:
This is really a slow week for some people.


the guys having a really slow week have been arguing over extension cords for the past 10 days :

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/966008



Dec 30, 2010 at 07:59 AM
Seanzky
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


howardm4 wrote:
Just about every Apple product is physically labeled as 'Designed by Apple in California' but the *box* it comes in reveals its country of origin (China).

This is really a slow week for some people.


I just checked my Apple boxes and you're right. Mr. Buff jumped the gun there a little too quickly. Unfortunately, I don't own Delco, a Texas Instruments processor, BatPac, etc. to verify Mr. Buff's other claims.



Dec 30, 2010 at 08:03 AM
Seanzky
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Mike Mahoney wrote:
the guys having a really slow week have been arguing over extension cords for the past 10 days :

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/966008


No wonder he wanted to end this thread a few posts above.

/thread



Dec 30, 2010 at 08:05 AM
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