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Archive 2010 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

tukhang
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

I am a newbie in this field.
I want to buy one before Christmas to have some fun with it. But I am so struggling between these two cameras.

Knowing they are different, One is TLR (Mamiya C220) and SLR (Pentax 645N).
I have been researching and look at their samples. The Mamiya's samples seem nicer to me (in term of colour accuracy and saturation....), the Pentax 645s seem nice but not as "vivid" as the C220.

Of course, I dont know If it is because of the film choice or the lens.
I am going to use these for fineart stuffs.

Anybody can give me some advices? Which one should I buy? They are relatively the same price btw.

Dec 04, 2010 at 12:32 PM

davenfl
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

I own both camera systems although my Pentax 645NII is an extensive system because I used it for my work. First there isn't going to be any perceptive difference in color or saturation because of the film camera. Perhaps slight differences in color balance and contrast because of lens but both systems had superb optics. If your seeing that it is related mostly to the film used and perhaps the processing. They are quite different camera with the Mamiya C220 twin reflex being a great camera for portraits and landscape but has a very limited lens selection. It's bigger brother the C330 which is really bulky was more to the liking of professional photographers (I own that also). The Pentax being a complete SLR system with a wide range of lens is a much more usable camera for all purposes. The lens are superb and in most cases are available at low cost through ebay and keh.com. If those are your 2 choices the features of the 645N would make it my choice hands down.

Dave

Edited on Dec 04, 2010 at 05:40 PM · View previous versions

Dec 04, 2010 at 12:43 PM

photosmart42
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

One issue to consider is the film format you're after. The TLR shoots in 6x6 format, so it's a larger image than the one you'd get from the SLR, which is 6x4.5. They're also completely different shooting styles. The TLR is a heads-down shooting style, looking through the upper lens and shooting through the lower lens, which comes with its own issues (especially in close-up photography where parallax can be an issue with TLR/RF-style cameras). The Pentax is more of a traditional through-the-lens shooting style that you hold up to your eye, which also makes it more conspicuous so not very good at shooting in crowds without causing a stir. The TLR also has the shutter on the lens and no mirror, making it very quite and stable, whereas the SLR has the traditional mirror that can be much louder, especially on a MF camera.

When looking at how 'vivid' the colors look, you'll have to consider the film people used in the sample images. There's a large amount of variation in different films, some being more 'vivid' than others. Don't automatically assume it's a lens characteristic.

Dec 04, 2010 at 04:03 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

OP, what do you want to shoot? This matters more than anything else in choosing a camera because the 2 you've mentioned are quite different and have different strengths and weaknesses.

photosmart42 wrote:
One issue to consider is the film format you're after. The TLR shoots in 6x6 format, so it's a larger image than the one you'd get from the SLR, which is 6x4.5. They're also completely different shooting styles. The TLR is a heads-down shooting style, looking through the upper lens and shooting through the lower lens, which comes with its own issues (especially in close-up photography where parallax can be an issue with TLR/RF-style cameras). The Pentax is more of a traditional through-the-lens shooting style that you hold up to your eye, which also makes it more conspicuous so not...Show more →

+1 on all of the above.

The TLR is IDEAL for stealth photography, being uber quiet and people don't even realise you are shooting them as they can't comprehend a camera that isn't pressed against a persons face, or held in front of them at arms length! It's harmless and doesn't cause a stir as would most other cameras. I love this aspect of the C220, although I hardly ever use mine any more. The C220 is a brilliant camera, maybe my favourite.

You can crop 6x6 into 6x4.5 without loosing quality but it doesn't work the other way around.

Differences in colour probably have more to do with film/scanning, PP rather than the camera/lens so I would not place much importance on that factor. The Mamiya lenses are 'likely' (I'm not certain) to be less contrasty then the more modern Pentax which is likely to have better coatings.

Consider what you want to shoot and that will tell you which camera to buy.

The TLR is brilliant for some things, but poor for others. Overall the Pentax is probably the most practical, but that's obviously dependent on your intended application.

JJ

Dec 04, 2010 at 05:10 PM

tukhang
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

Going for Medium Format, I am probably going to it use to shoot along with my 5D during Portrait session, and also landscape which is the biggest advantage of Medium format.

I do have potential for streetlife photography but I dont really have chance to do it.

One of the reasons I decide to buy a Medium Format cam is its image quality. I dont really care about the so-called vintage look. I prefer my pictures to look just right in term of white balance and colour accuracy, I dont really like the "tin-ish" look, little bit is ok, but not so much.

I really appreciate these comments!

Dec 04, 2010 at 06:54 PM

Sam N
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

If you want perfect white balance and color accuracy, don't use film.

Dec 04, 2010 at 07:12 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

tukhang wrote:
... I prefer my pictures to look just right in term of white balance and colour accuracy, I dont really like the "tin-ish" look, little bit is ok, but not so much...

You're in for a rude shock. It's very difficult to get accurate white balance with film, even for experienced shooters. I shot cars for magazines with E6 film for many years, at sunrise/set, overcast, indoors, in shadows and all kinds of lighting, and colour accuracy/balance was always difficult. I hardly ever shot in plain old daylight which would have been much easier. This is so easy now with digital and RAW files where all of this is set after the fact.

If you shoot slide film/E6 (and you want the correct balance on the film) then you have to get it right when you press the shutter release. This requires a range of colour correcting filters, from 81A through to 85C, and probably some green and magenta filtration too. You might need a colour temp meter too and the time to understand what it is telling you and how to relate this to a filter (by which time the light has probably changed anyway). Shooting C41 lets you off the hook to an extent.

I'm assuming you won't actually be printing the film so you will have to scan the film, which leaves you all the same issues as having shot it digitally in the first place, but with heaps more dust to contend with.

I think medium format film 'seems' like a great idea but the reality is not what it seems. If you intend to print the film (ie in a darkroom, all analog, no digital) then that's another story. But once you start scanning then you are better off shooting digital in the first place. IMHO.

JJ

Dec 04, 2010 at 07:28 PM

melcat
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

I had the Mamiya C330 for a while, also with the intention of shooting landscapes.

If you go this way, look up and understand "leaf shutter efficiency". This can be adjusted for with electronic shutters, but the Mamiya ones were mechanical and there was no attempt to correct for it in the mechanism. Independent of this problem, but making it even harder for a novice to counter it, the leaf shutters require periodic adjustment. This is expensive and there's a shutter per lens.

In their heyday, these cameras were typically used for posed portraits and group shots. The tripod and subject were set at a fixed distance, the settings were usually canned, and it was black and white negative film, which in those days was very forgiving of poor exposure. I remember as a small child, in the 1960s, a photographer using a TLR to take our class photo. He had a big spooled tape measure and some chalk, and set his tripod a fixed distance from the seats. He probably had a mark on the bellows mechanism and owned a single lens. This was probably a C220, as they were standard for the job.

So yes, it is a "professional" camera, but, as is often the case, as an amateur you need a more sophisticated tool.

JohnJ is dead right about film. The scanning will get you, and unless you get an expensive medium format scanner, you'll be doing it on a flatbed, which is a new world of pain. That was why I went back to 35mm film. It was the colour temperature/accuracy issue that pushed me to digital - even though you could get away with fewer corrections for landscape than would be acceptable for car photography.

EDIT - Bob Monaghan's page on the camera appears to be back on line:

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/mamiyac220.html

This may be the source of the Internet meme that it's a good medium format camera for amateurs. IMO it is not unless you're doing posed studio work and have deep pockets for the shutter services.

Dec 04, 2010 at 10:00 PM

Grant G.
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

I used C330s in high school journalism in the late 60s....and speed graphics. Both were wonderful and they took a real whipping as student cams. I used my paper route money to buy a Nikkormat FTN in 1969. I still have that cam, and am looking at it as we speak. Ah the smell of a darkroom, we always tried to get the high school girls in there, a dark stinky place complete with geeky guys. But by that time, they were too smart for that. I shot miles of Plus-X. Ecktachrome too so I could look at things before I spent the money to print.

Sorry, I was just drifting during a senior moment.

Grant

Dec 04, 2010 at 10:13 PM

tukhang
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

It's so wonderful to hear about these "historical" things as a "child" of this new generation.
I watched a lot of photography documentaries and I am so curious to feel what those photographers back in time feel.

My university has a dark room and also 2 small film scanners, if I am not wrong, they are Nikon Coolscan V something for 35mm.

I may need to consider 35mm as well. For 35mm, I am looking into the Nikon F2, but its quite expensive for a good one plus the lens.

Dec 04, 2010 at 11:05 PM

melcat
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

The advantage of TLRs for posed portraits, doubly so for groups, was the lack of mirror blackout. This meant you could see when someone blinked. These days you just chimp with a DSLR, but when there was just film and hand retouching someone blinking would mean the expense of another session, because you didn't know it had happened until the film was developed.

Speaking of which, your major problem in replicating 1960s photography is going to be the difference in film emulsions then and now. In partcular, silver was much cheaper then and in the early 1970s some films were revised or discontinued because of that.

Dec 05, 2010 at 01:02 AM

sirimiri
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

You might also consider shooting some black and while films with either of the MF cameras you pick up. Once you "regress" from color to B+W, it becomes more a thing of overall tonality. B/W still does this as well as it always did. I don't do much HDR nor use/own Silver EFX, but a well-scanned B+W negative has lots and lots of editing potential.

I use a 645NII - it's noisy, clunky and ugly but has great battery life, great AF for what it is, and the UI is simple, the camera stays out of your way.

If I were to advise on which camera you should get, I must say the Penax 645 FA 150mm lens is really fantastic for portraits. The autofocus (FA) lenses were practically free a few years ago, but with the Pentax 645D coming out, they are harder to find. In any event, I think your easiset transition from a dSLR would be with the Pentax.

So, if the 645N is on the table, and you can't step up to a 645NII, "go for it" says I.

Dec 05, 2010 at 11:24 PM

mhespenheide
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

Tukhang,

This has been pointed out earlier, but keep in mind... they're very different cameras in the style that they're used (ergonomics). Unless you get an accessory finder for the TLR, you're looking down through a panel with the image reversed left/right. The Pentax will be more "normal", or what you're likely used to looking through for a regular SLR.

This is much more important than any other difference between the two cameras.

If you really want to get into landscape, skip the medium format and go straight up to large format. Medium format has noticeably less depth of field than 35mm or digital APS-C sensors.

Dec 06, 2010 at 12:32 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · MediumF: Mamiya C220 or Pentax 645N

The colour scientists at Fuji and Kodak did produce some wonderful palettes over the years, some very suitable for general use, some for vibrancy in landscape work.

E6 can be well profiled for scanning, but like the guy in Blood Simple says of Texas, with C41 (colour neg) - 'you're on your own'...and scanning is a black art, as the technology was just maturing when the digi behemoth arrived in full force and the big companies abandoned ship in the desktop film scanner market.

You need to get on top of a lot of inherently difficult issues if you take this up: software, hardware compatibility, general scanning know-how, noise reduction, film flatness, glass holders, colour balancing - it's hard. Even getting good processing is and was very hard. Post processing film is a much greater challenge than any digital source. So it ends up being a labour of love, and it takes many months and years of effort!

I suggest you find a good film lab (hard these days) for colour or stick to having fun with black and white at home. B&W film is incredibly sharp and has a look the software companies try to mimic for digital, generally with less than wonderful results.

Medium format is more than acceptable re DOF compared to large format, in my view, if shooting wide to normal lenses. The better systems and lenses tolerate small apertures well, and are so much easier/cheaper to use, as to negate the remaining LF advantages. Also, you can use cheaper roll film (32 exposures per 220 roll for 645), lighter tripods/heads, no changing bag, quicker setup/pack up, viewfinder framing, wind protection, filter usage, easier for travel, pack weight, etc. With LF you are really in the hands of drum scan labs - very costly indeed.

So, in summary, a good MF system is much like 35mm in practical usage, maybe easier, but with 3-5 times the film real estate. And the frames are sure worth scanning much more than 35mm. Had the standard film formats been medium format at the turn of the millenium, digital would have had a much tougher job making inroads into the market, such is the visual impact of high quality MF work...

Dec 06, 2010 at 06:27 PM


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