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Archive 2009 · pp-- where to start

Miker Reid
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p.2 #1 · pp-- where to start

Lisa,
PP is the easy part...don't over complicate it.
Look at the photo and decide what you like about it and what you don't. Correct the things you don't like.
Learn that first, don't over complicate it.

I know you like to shoot in natural light. Look for the light first, follow the light and use it to add texture, drama and pop to your photos.

For PP, exposure, white balance, contrast, color/saturation in order of importance. Some combination of these four will be right for every picture, play with them and learn what effect they have on your photos. It will gradually come to you to the point that you will look up one day and you will have it.
Once you have mastered basic image processing (and you are getting close when I compare these latest photos to your work from even a couple months ago)....go on to composition etc etc etc.
You will spend a lifetime creating your style and morphing it as your vision changes, your compositional and posing choices will evolve over time.

If you try to bite off everything at once it can be pretty overwhelming. Knowing where you started from I can see that you have improved a lot in a short time. You are going about it the right way.

As others mentioned you original version of the photos are much better than your cropped versions. Moving the subject out of the center adds drama and energy to the photos.

Nov 19, 2009 at 11:42 AM

Ziffl3
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p.2 #2 · pp-- where to start

Lisa,
Good to see you here.

Good stuff on PP and philosophy.

_Mark

Nov 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM

TRReichman
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p.2 #3 · pp-- where to start

If your lighting is right on then its entirely possible that your images will need next to no PP. Digital cameras (assuming we're talking digital here) tend to be a little flat on color, contrast and sharpness SOOC. This is typically what "needs" to be addressed in post. Having said that it is entirely possible to overcome those things in-cameras with the proper lighting. Exposure, white balance, etc are almost always better to get right in camera, unless we are using the particular ways that the camera renders those things to get a different effect that we can leverage in post.

PP today shouldn't be any different than it was in the darkroom days. The goal of a photo should be effective communication, storytelling and it should be easy for the viewer to read through the image and find the point(s) of interest organically. Therefore your images should be effectively composed to have a point of interest and a natural flow to it. PP should enhance this process or in the worst of cases help create that flow. All the rest is window dressing or distraction.

90% of PP should be dodging and burning to help emphasize the point of interest.

- trr

p.s. - evan's got it right.

Nov 19, 2009 at 12:43 PM

littleme
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p.2 #4 · pp-- where to start

Thanks everyone-- I really appreciate you giving me so much to think about! So, my cropping adjustments really made things worse-- fabulous! See, this is why I need help, I'm ruining my pics with the little pp knowledge I do posses!

It sounds like getting the on-camera image as good as I can will pay large dividends in the end, and thus should be top priority. So I have composition, lighting and pp to work on. Actually, getting off priority modes (AV/TV), getting my flash off camera (at least for the reception) and posing are on my list as well. There is also marketing stuff like working on my website, making a blog, coming up with a brand, not to mention business things like tweaking my contract and accounting: lots of stuff. So the main idea is that as a newbie, you kind of have to learn, um: EVERYTHING.

But I guess it's all cyclical tweaking-- continuously learning, refining bits here and there-- rounding off the rough spots. And it sounds like plenty of it comes from experience, too and willingness to experiment. I guess my question on pp has returned to it's genesis, which was "where do I go from here?" I thought the next step was pp, as I have so little experience and have worked at least a little on the other areas, plus after the pp comments on my work made me think-- this is my next step. It sounds like "where do I go from here?" is something I have to answer for myself and something that probably will involve dabbling in all of the above, as all of these things work together to make great pics and keep a wedding photography business afloat.

A strength of mine is typically prioritizing, but as I am so new to all this, it is probably the most difficult thing for me to do right now-- I can't tell what I'm doing well and what I'm not, which is why I'm stuck. I can tell that I'm moving in a positive direction though, as my buddies Mike and Ziff have pointed out-- so that's good. It's hard to believe where I've come in a few months since starting, when I was using a rebel and kit lens on the auto mode, unable to move focus points, using the built in flash, oh boy...

Anyway, yeah if anything jumps out to you, as needing the most attention, please let me know. I will be checking out the composition book Evan suggested tomorrow and staying away from the crop too forever, j/k :P

Thanks again, you all rock! Thanks for reading my novel. Again, I've probably said too much :P

Nov 19, 2009 at 10:29 PM

Miker Reid
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p.2 #5 · pp-- where to start

Don't worry about it, I for 1 am enjoying watching your progress.
We all went through the same stages you are working through at some point.

Nov 20, 2009 at 11:24 AM

David Manning
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p.2 #6 · pp-- where to start

I think the most important thing you're doing is asking questions and posting pictures for critique. I've been around here for a few years (under a couple different names because I forget passwords), and I've yet to post pics for CC. It's about time. Post processing has always fascinated me. In fact, I have bought a ton of actions and presets, but my favorite images are the cleanest ones. Even when I use a preset or action, I almost always end up detuning it anyway. Like the others have said, learning better camera handling techniques and composition will serve us well, and our work won't date us as quickly. Don't get me wrong, I like great PP and textures too, but they are "sooo last year". The truth is, there is a lot to learn, but ultimately your art is about you and your interpretation of the scene. Post processing is like salt, a little goes a long way, but some foods require more than others. For more information on PP, check out anything by Scott Kelby or Julieanne Kost. You can even subscribe to the free Photoshop Users TV weekly video podcast throuth iTunes.

There is a ton of talent here on FM, and many of them have weighed in already. Continue seeking their advice, and keep pressing forward. Your images are very nice. It's clear that you have vision and skill already. Defining and refining your style is a lifelong process. Continue mastering the fundamentals, and incorporate the latest tools and techniques to add the signature to your style.

David

Nov 20, 2009 at 11:41 AM

dmacmillan
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p.2 #7 · pp-- where to start

Two books I think are worthwhile for post processing are:

"Skin..." be Lee Varis
http://www.amazon.com/Skin-Complete-Digitally-Photographing-Retouching/dp/047004733X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258736689&sr=8-1

Perhaps a little less relevent, but still filled with useful information is Katrin Eismann's "Adobe Photoshop Restoration & Retouching "
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Photoshop-Restoration-Retouching-3rd/dp/0321316274/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258736806&sr=1-2#noop

In addition to practical techniques, they include some theory that's helpful.

I like Lee Varis' techniques for beauty retouching. You can get results that don't look overdone or plasticy.

Since I come from many years shooting film, my approach has always been to get it right in the camera. Even with the wonders of Photoshop, having a clean, correctly exposed image makes your post processing life more pleasant. I suggest concentrating on basic correction techniques at first. Explore what Lightroom has to offer. There's so much that can be done easily there, especially with the adjustment brush.

Nov 20, 2009 at 12:19 PM

lisy78
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p.2 #8 · pp-- where to start

DB wrote:
Oh -

One thing that has tremendously helped me this year is ditching the idea of getting rockstar shots with off-camera flash.

Uh?!?! How else do you plan on getting good Rockstar Photos? :

http://www.manymanymoments.com/blog/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/RockBand22.jpg

http://www.manymanymoments.com/blog/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/RockBand21.jpg

http://www.manymanymoments.com/blog/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/RockBand231.jpg

from my post here: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/836795

Nov 20, 2009 at 12:22 PM

DB
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p.2 #9 · pp-- where to start

Well, I CAN say that I love rockstar shots of rockstars (heehee). No complaints there!

Nov 20, 2009 at 01:44 PM

lisy78
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p.2 #10 · pp-- where to start

DB wrote:
Well, I CAN say that I love rockstar shots of rockstars (heehee). No complaints there!

I was thinking of posting the pre pp versions of the rockstar images above, but as it turns out I think seeing the OOC version vs the PP version actually gives away a little bit of secret sauce that I've had clients specifically point out as something they dig and that I haven't really noticed anyone else do, so I decided against it... but I can say that looking at them side by side IMHO the changes are to a degree SUBTLE... but the end result is ENORMOUSLY better.

some of the more talented posters here are writing something that I think can be deceiving... they're basically saying that PP should and does make a difference only at the margin. That may indeed be true most of the time, however THAT margin is what can often separate a very good photo from a FANTASTIC photo.

Now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that I've never taken a shot that I thought was OUTSTANDING SOOC ... 'cause I have. But let's put it this way... I have far more shots that were GOOD SOOC and are imho now FANTASTIC thanks to PP than I have shots that were anywhere near FANTASTIC SOOC.

I guess what I'm saying is that good PP can take a 7 and make it a 9 bad pp can take an 8 and make it a 6 and no pp takes an 8 and leaves it an 8

This, incidentally is even corroborated by my personal experience here. For instance a set I posted recently (second shooting with Tony S) most of the photos that were praised had in fact had PP that imho had definitely helped them far outclass other shots that were otherwise in many ways better SOOC. As a point of pride quite a few of those were not at all "after the fact fixes" but rather fully planned out in advance images that I knew I would complete on the computer.

The same was true of a previous E-session I posted in mid october. So the people HERE are corroborating my thesis

Nov 20, 2009 at 07:02 PM

tdurnan
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p.2 #11 · pp-- where to start

http://revver.com/

Nov 20, 2009 at 08:12 PM

Steve Wylie
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p.2 #12 · pp-- where to start

If you like classic wedding photography, take a look at David Ziser at digitalprotalk.com. David is a wealth of information and a fantastic teacher (not a bad marketer of his tools either). He has some great resources that you can learn from, including online tutorials from his website, DVDs for purchase, and a nifty set of spiral-bound books called "Hotshots" showing the hows and whys of classic wedding photography in terms of composition, lighting, and lens selection. I highly recommend him.

Nov 22, 2009 at 01:29 AM

Andrew Welsh
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p.2 #13 · pp-- where to start

nothing wrong learning some PP, but usually when I doll up an image I will deliver the "straight" color version to the client as well, recognizing that it may not be to their taste, or that it may have a dated look in a few years.

Evan is right to stress the contents of the photo are most important... kind of like learning how to drive a car before worrying about what's playing on the radio

Nov 22, 2009 at 09:32 AM

CaroleHayes
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p.2 #14 · pp-- where to start

Late to the game, but I really love the uncropped versions of #2 and #3!

Nov 22, 2009 at 09:56 AM

littleme
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p.2 #15 · pp-- where to start

thanks, folks

Nov 23, 2009 at 10:46 PM

Photo197726
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p.2 #16 · pp-- where to start

FWIW - I hire all of my post processing out. Coming from a film background, it was something I wasn't interested in investing the time (or computing power) into. I have a good relationship with a guy who understands what I want from a processed image - the processing I have done is very minimal though. I prefer to get it as perfect as possible in the camera.

I shoot far more commercial work than i do weddings, and it's easier to bill it direct in that scenario, but when i generate my wedding pricing that is one thing factored into the equation.

Nov 23, 2009 at 10:56 PM

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