fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              10       11       end
  

Archive 2009 · M9 or something else?

  
 
Makten
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.4 #1 · M9 or something else?


kidtexas wrote:
It's not that people don't want others to use RFs. I think it comes down to two things. First, not everyone gets the incredible limitations that come along with using RFs until they've used them - no zooms, nothing longer than 135, imprecise framing, poor minimum focus distance, no macro, simple metering, etc. I don't think it takes any more skill, you just have to be ok living within the confines of those limitations, and the couple of bonuses you get for putting up with those limitations have to be important enough for you to make it worthwhile.

Second, as you
...Show more

You are certainly right about the limitations, but those that are willing to sell their current (heavy) gear are probably well aware of that. It could actually be a reason in itself.
Most "pro" cameras of today are so full of features and gimmicks that it to some extent takes away the joy of photographing. You don't HAVE to be able to take every possible shot, whether it's about macro, tele or perfect framing.

I haven't touched my D700 for several weeks. Instead I'm enjoying the very simple M8 with only one lens (CV 28/2). I'm sure many would be pleased to do the same, and I know that I wouldn't have regretted selling the D700 to get an M9. I'll probably do that next year.



Nov 12, 2009 at 12:20 PM
kidtexas
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #2 · M9 or something else?


Makten wrote:
You don't HAVE to be able to take every possible shot, whether it's about macro, tele or perfect framing.


Word. I haven't shot a frame on my SLR since... May?



Nov 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM
smartblur
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #3 · M9 or something else?


kidtexas wrote:
Spyro, glad you bought a film RF first to try it out. Every time someone on RFF comes on and says, "I've never really used an RF before, but I want to sell all my gear and buy an M8/M9 + $8k worth of lenses" people say to pick up an M6/Ikon/Bessa and a $200-300 lens to see if you even like it. They usually want nothing to do with that advice.


That's funny. Does it still count if you don't sell all your digital gear?

Having said that, what do you recommend as a $200-$300 lens for a M6/Ikon/Bessa?



Nov 12, 2009 at 01:30 PM
dasrocket
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #4 · M9 or something else?


OntheRez wrote:
Re Rangefinder digital cameras.

Is there any source of digital rangefinders other than Leica? I used Leicas back in my film days and like the size, weight, freedom of the RF style camera but wasn't aware that the format had survived into the digital era. I'm not in a position to drop $10k on a camera and lens setup. Are there alternatives?

Robert


The Leica M8/8.2 , M9 and the EPSON R-D1 are the only three truly RF digitals. I had the EPSON and it was my favourite camera. It's a 6mp camera that shoots up to ISO 1600 but that was never a hinderance for me as it is for pixel-peepers. I have seen them go used for 1200-1400.



Nov 12, 2009 at 01:47 PM
kidtexas
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #5 · M9 or something else?


smartblur wrote:
That's funny. Does it still count if you don't sell all your digital gear?

Having said that, what do you recommend as a $200-$300 lens for a M6/Ikon/Bessa?


Then you have more cash than me

Depends on what focal length you like. For 21-28mm, I'd look at the Cosina Voigtlander lenses. The 21/4, 25/4, and 28/3.5 go for about that used. The 15/4.5 screw mount CV lens can be had for that used too. The 28/3.5 has recently been discontinued but is great. I've heard good stuff about the 21/4 too.

For 35mm... I think the CV 35/2.5 is $300 new, or one of the older Canon 35s maybe.

For 50mm, again, one of the CV 50/2.5 are about $300 new, or look for a CV 40/1.4 used (new $400) or a used 50/1.5 (new $400). There are a lot of options here though. I got a Nikkor 50/1.4 for $250. Canon and Nikkors are available - f/2, f/1.8, f/1.4, etc. They should all be around this price. Older Leicas are usually a bit more, but you might find an old Summicron for around that price if you get lucky. Of course, you could always go even older than that - I think the Summars go for pretty cheap, and some people really love them. There's also a plethora of 50/2.8 Elmars. The newer Elmar-Ms go for about $6-700, so if you are willing to buy one that's 30 years old or so, you might be able to drop down to $300.

For 90's, the older Leica 90/4s are dirt cheap. You can pick up the CV 90/3.5 APO Lanthar for cheap too. I don't know if it is the same formula/performance as the one mentioned in the APO thread.

If you are willing to stretch the lens budget a bit to $400-500, a couple of other 50mm options become available. The Konica Hexanon M 50/2 ($400ish?) and the Zeiss ZM 50/2 Planar ($500ish), both used. More 50 Summicrons should pop up in this price range too. A couple of years ago I got a latest version Summicron for a hair more than $500. Probably more of the old, more esoteric Canon and Nikkor lenses too.

There are some other brands that are available too that I don't know much about, like Kobalux. Oh yeah, the Jupiter lenses can be had for like $100 and from what I hear, aren't all that bad.

Whooo. $200-300 does limit you to used CV lenses and older Canon/Nikkors, but they are still pretty good, some quite amazing. Going up to $500 opens a lot more up, and $800ish gets you pretty much any new Zeiss ZM lens, which, depending on your income, could be totally reasonable. You DO NOT have to spend $4.5k on a Leica 50/1.4 ASPH though just to try things out



Nov 12, 2009 at 03:49 PM
James R
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #6 · M9 or something else?


thrice wrote:
I think the strap I got from them is a little short for the way I carry my camera (diagonally over shoulder, like a camera bag) so I might look at getting the "artist" strap long version from them.

I think the problem with Leica rangefinders is accessorising, it's like buying a new car, I've got a handmade leather case, handmade strap, thumbs up, accessory viewfinder, polariser finder, and a nice domke bag... getting a bit out of hand but I'm enjoying it.

I'm surprised how short some of the waiting lists are in AUS, I spoke to a couple of dealers
...Show more

Unfortunately, the supply is shorter than the waiting lists in the US.



Nov 12, 2009 at 04:01 PM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.4 #7 · M9 or something else?


dasrocket wrote:
The Leica M8/8.2 , M9 and the EPSON R-D1 are the only three truly RF digitals. I had the EPSON and it was my favourite camera. It's a 6mp camera that shoots up to ISO 1600 but that was never a hinderance for me as it is for pixel-peepers. I have seen them go used for 1200-1400.


I've seen references to the M8 for around $2,500, the M8.2 for around $4k and I gather the M9 is yet to arrive. A bit a research on the R-D1 suggest that it takes both Leica M and L mounts. I M is the current system is L the old screw mount? I have several of those sitting around.

Where would on look for a R-D1. Also I saw a reference to An EPSON R-D1X. Is that available in the US?

Robert



Nov 12, 2009 at 05:06 PM
mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #8 · M9 or something else?


OntheRez wrote:
I've seen references to the M8 for around $2,500, the M8.2 for around $4k and I gather the M9 is yet to arrive. A bit a research on the R-D1 suggest that it takes both Leica M and L mounts. I M is the current system is L the old screw mount? I have several of those sitting around.

Where would on look for a R-D1. Also I saw a reference to An EPSON R-D1X. Is that available in the US?

Robert


Any M camera can use LTM lenses (which are indeed Leica Screwmount) with a M-LTM adapter. Note that Cosina-based designs like the Voigtlander Bessa's and the Epson RD-1's have manually selected framelines and so which adapter you have doesn't matter. The Leica's select framelines based on mechanical coupling in the bayonet mount and so you need to match the adapter to the lens (They come in 28/90, 35/135 and 50/75 versions. 24/25mm lenses may need a specific adapter for the M8/M8.2 so read a good M8 FAQ before selecting an adapter if you're a M8 shooter).

The R-D1X is the latest update of the R-D1. It's essentially an R-D1 with a larger fixed LCD rather than the smaller flip-out LCD the R-D1s and R-D1 have. The R-D1's are not currently marketed outside Japan.



Nov 12, 2009 at 08:50 PM
JimBuchanan
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #9 · M9 or something else?


Makten wrote:
Those half stops are actually closer to one stop each. Further more, you can lose another stop because there are no affordable 28/1.4 lenses for M8 (not even unaffordable)


Yes, that was what I was trying to say, that the equivalent normal lens on a M8 costs more than the 50mm on a FF M9, and it will therefore cost more to maintain the shallow DOF with faster lenses, than the M9.




Nov 12, 2009 at 09:30 PM
orangefirefish
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #10 · M9 or something else?


The premium on a digital full frame Leica M is still much too high for most people for what you get over a comparable DSLR.
Especially for someone new to RF's, I really would not jump in with the M9, unless you've thoroughly demoed one.
You might hate the long close focusing distance. You might hate the framing accuracy. In fact you might even hate manual focus.... the list goes on. There's a long list of things that most people new to RFs don't even consider.
Sure, there's a certain allure and romantic attraction to Leica M's... especially on paper, but if you haven't lived it, you have no idea.

If you want a good digital camera, there are many that are comparable and even better, for less. I would not drop down that much money on one unless I was absolutely sure I wanted to go the RF route- that's just foolish and I would try to rent or demo a setup before committing. It's most certainly not for everyone.

The image quality seems very good but a D700 or 5DII are comparable, if not better in some areas.

What you are paying for is the ability to use M mount lenses on a digital FF sensor- no other company makes one. In addition, your dealer is making a much larger margin off of these simply because it's a luxury item and people are simply willing to overpay- the margin is around 25% if I remember correctly (as opposed to ~7% for a Nikon/Canon DSLR).

The 5DII with a small MF lens isn't that much bigger as another member pointed out- and micro 4/3s cameras like the GF1 look very, very good as well- especially since you can actually adapt M-mount lenses to the system (albeit with a 2x crop) and you could buy almost 8 of those for the price of an M9. Sure, the M9 seems great- I'm just not sure it's worth it unless you absolutely know what you're doing.

Let's face it- most current DSLR users will not reap the advantages of having a rangefinder in most situations they encounter. They don't need the discreetness, the size advantages, or the optical quality of M lenses. If you need it for your professional work or your shooting environment, you would have had a film M body far before any of the digital M's came out.

If you want a digital camera- just own a darn good one like the D700 or 5D II- these are really darn good cameras and it's hard to find fault with them or the lenses, especially considering the price compared to the M9. Consider picking up a good compact camera like the GF-1 and a 20/1.7 for lightweight shooting, or for RF's, and for the occasions you need one, consider an MP, M7, or M6. The film M's is really where you should learn the beauty of the M system.

If you haven't already, play with an M8/.2/9 and then the MP. You will be surprised how much better the MP feels in build quality and discreet operation.

My opinion is that if you want to get into the Leica system, the film M's are where the Leica's are worth it currently. A film M just feels right, sounds right, and works right. The digital ones, while nice, still have some small shortcomings and with the accompanying price tags... the M9 is not something I would do without fully understanding the beauty of the system.




Nov 12, 2009 at 11:45 PM
JimBuchanan
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #11 · M9 or something else?


After reading this last post, I feel like I just read the phone book.


Nov 13, 2009 at 12:43 AM
brainiac
Offline
[X]
p.4 #12 · M9 or something else?


Desirable though an M9 kit looks, when I think of the money I recoil. There are other ways of achieving lightweight and excellent manual focus full-frame outfits. My lightweight kit comprises 5D2, Olys 21 f3.5, 28 f3.5, 40 f2, and Contax 85 f2.8 (or Oly 90 f2 macro). The extra iso helps a lot.
http://cyberphotographer.com/5d2/5d2oly40_lowrez.jpg
http://cyberphotographer.com/5d2/oly21+28.jpg



Nov 13, 2009 at 06:23 AM
Mike Tuomey
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #13 · M9 or something else?


once a grip is on an M9, there can't be a significant size difference b/w brainiac's 5D and the leica. brilliant kit!


Nov 13, 2009 at 06:48 AM
thrice
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #14 · M9 or something else?


The difference in size between kits cannot be denied, I've got both, a Leica M kit of body + 4 lenses is significantly smaller than the 5D with 4 lenses. But whatever kit justifications one has to make to enjoy photography are necessary


Nov 13, 2009 at 07:04 AM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #15 · M9 or something else?


Mike Tuomey wrote:
once a grip is on an M9, there can't be a significant size difference b/w brainiac's 5D and the leica. brilliant kit!


No, there is:

http://spyro-p.smugmug.com/photos/711936853_7sSvp-L.jpg

(from T.O.P.)

and this is with normal lenses, if you go to wide/ultra wide the difference is much more pronounced.



Nov 13, 2009 at 07:27 AM
brainiac
Offline
[X]
p.4 #16 · M9 or something else?


Spyro P. wrote:
And although Richard's kit is very nice, crop cameras+legacy lenses present an unsolved problem if you like your wides: its either not wide enough...


The Oly 21 is quite wide on my 5D2 - I'm not advocating adherence to crop cameras at all.

...or not fast enough.

...alternatively think about it this way: for the same brightness of scene the 5D2's cleaner high isos allow you to use a smaller aperture lens with more depth of field. With the M you'll need to carry more or less the same size of glass as with the 5D2 since you lose a stop in iso. Then consider the price of an EOS mountable f2.8 lens against an f2 M mount lens. Sometimes the M version will cost hundreds or even thousands more. It's not always the case, but generally the size and weight advantage is lost due to iso, and you're just left with a huge hole in your bank account. Don't get me wrong - I would love to use an M, but the world I live in is one of necessity, not one of luxury, so I struggle on with a much cheaper, and in my opinion equally good but more versatile kit.



Nov 13, 2009 at 07:36 AM
brainiac
Offline
[X]
p.4 #17 · M9 or something else?


BTW here's another illustration of scale:
http://cyberphotographer.com/m9/450dm9toscale.jpg

I know this is unfair because the 500D is on a par with the M9 at high isos, so this Leica combination can see in lower light. However, it does illustrate that APS-C bodies, cheap as they are, are not that much deeper and more cumbersome than the M9.



Nov 13, 2009 at 07:42 AM
Anden
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #18 · M9 or something else?


I am with you richard regarding size but comparing a 21/3.5 with a 50/1.4 is not 100 % fair...


Nov 13, 2009 at 07:48 AM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #19 · M9 or something else?


Richard you're preaching to the converted

But I still think we have to give the size point to the RF system, its obvious to my eyes (and we're comparing FF only, apples with apples, this is the M9 thread). Look, your needs re ISO are extreme, you shoot moving subjects flashless and in near no light. Not many people do that, in fact you're the only one I know.

The $ point goes to the SLR, thats obvious too. However re lenses, if that extra stop is what you need, there's always Voigtlander to save the day, and they're cheap as chips... compared to ZM/Leica



Nov 13, 2009 at 07:54 AM
kidtexas
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #20 · M9 or something else?


I find that the small size of RFs is really appreciated once you have 2 or 3 lenses. A similar selection with a modern SLR is much larger. My RF, while smaller than my SLR when both have a 50/1.4 on them, really looks smaller once you add in a 90/85 and a 28mm and a super wide. And there are some REAL small gems of lenses still available for RF that make the 50/1.4 shown above look absolutely enormous. Like the CV 21/4.


Nov 13, 2009 at 08:30 AM
1       2       3              5              10       11       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              10       11       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account