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Archive 2009 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion

  
 
stevensdot
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p.6 #1 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Yes - it would be good to find more portable options between the Vagabond based solutions and the Ranger. However what I want out of a portable system is not so much power but control. Having 7 to 8 stop range and radio control on a portable system with flexible enough power for some outside work and enough low power control to mitigate the need for collecting expensive speed lights .


Jun 29, 2009 at 04:46 PM
rickboden
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p.6 #2 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


That is why I am interested in these new Alien Bee Max units and the promise of being more efficient on battery. A three pound monolight is not that much heavier than say, a Quantum flash. The big thing is how well they work on battery and how small a battery/inverter unit can be made that will give a reasonable amount of flashes with a decent recycle time. Then you would have the read deal in my opinion. The 250 watt modeling light is a big plus.

Rick



Jun 29, 2009 at 05:39 PM
mmurph
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p.6 #3 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Cableaddict wrote:
It would be very interesting to see what's on the "product development" wishlist of the pros.


I bought a Broncolor Verso A2 RFS with battery dock. I am 100% happy with it!

Up to 650 watts modeling light, 10 minutes of modeling, 3 heads, 1200 Ws, 8 stop control range, asymmetrical over all 3 heads. RFS control (like Sykport.) .3 to 1.8 sec recycle on battery, 350 full power pops. No more real wishes. It kicks ass!

When I don't want to haul as much weight (pack is 16 pounds, + battery), like working without an assistant, I have my Broncolor Mobil and Visatec Litepac (really the same units) which I have been using for 4-5 years. The Visatec is 600 Ws, compared to the 1200 of the Mobil, but I almost always take that. A little bit lighter, about 12 pounds with battery. Easily fits in an airline carry-on roller with an extra battery, ring flash, and 2 heads. Plus modifiers and a pop-up softbox. It is a **real** pleasure to use, very very happy with it!

Digital control in .1 stop. 2 head outlets, symetrical, but that has never been an issue (newer version offers asymmetric.) Heads are the size of a can of soda. Cute little snoots or barn doors are not much larger, or use a beauty dish, or softbox, or even the Para 220 (though I bought the Verso to use with big modifiers like the Para.) Less than $1K used with 1-2 heads and battery.

I also still have 1 Dynalite Uni Jr 400 around, for when I want to go more portable with a Quantum Turbo battery (2x2.) About $500 used with battery. I also have 2 550Ex left (fried the 3rd) Use that with the Quantum when needed. I have an St-E2, but prefer Pocket Wizards. Just for sports nad down and dirty stuiff, I find teh light harsh even with a small softbox, etc. and not to my liking.

So, that pretty much covers the spectrum for me. I am 100% happy and not in need of any other solutions.

If I were to "add on", I would buy a Dynalite XP 1100 or a Vagabond to use with my monolights or with my Speedotron Bronline packs. I used to have an XP 11000 before I got the battery powered packs. The XP 1100 is really a great unit, multiple batteries, very easy to swap out in about 5 seconds. But teh battery packs are much more elegant! So I never really need to go that route any more.

I don't see many if any "holes" in product technology. Things will continure to get better of course. More f stop range,. more diogital where it doesn't exist. Smaller, but realoly most of teh weight is the battery. The question is "how much juice do you want to carry, and what form factor."

It is pretty linear. You want 2 amps? Quantum Turbo. 5 amps? Small pack with battery, like the Elinchrom (guessing) 9 amps? Bron Mobil/Elinchrom Ranger (though the Ranger seems much larger/heavier). 18 amps? Vagabond or XP 1100.

You want it in 1 battery? Vagabond. 2 batteries? Mobil with extra battery. Etc.

I would suggest just going out and trying what is there. I used to drive myself nuts trying to engineer solutions in an "ideal" - armchair- world.

Somehow the stuff just works in the real world. And stuff that really bothered me before I tried the equipment - 2 head outlets that were symmetrical, not asymmetrical - become a total non-issue in use. Use 2 packs, or set 1 light at 7' and one at 10' to get a 1 stop difference.

I don't pay big bucks to models. But even with $50 to $100 and hour for a model, plus the same for a make-up artist, plus an assistant, "salaries" for a single shoot are usually around $1,500, even for personal work for my portfolio. So the cost of most equipment is negligable by comparison.

Of course the client always pays for the equipment in the end, one way or another. (I bill at 1/2 of regular rental rates for anything beyond the basics - like the Para, or the Canon 1DsII a few years ago, etc. $125 a day for the 1DsII, regular rental was $250.)

Cheers!
Michael



Jun 29, 2009 at 06:38 PM
stevensdot
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p.6 #4 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


with all due respect Michael you have a impressive amount of gear and I am sure considerable knowledge but perhaps too dismissive of another mans choice of horse. Rentals are not a reliable option for most of the country and production budgets are falling with the economy. Broncolor and Visatec being excellent products - I personally find them to esoteric in my market with little or no local support as for buying used ... might last for years might not. Quantum ... please no .. maybe for weddings or portraits but modern speed lights would be cheaper and a lot more flexible, When I do rentals it is usually has to shipped in and when it shows up wrong, damaged or missing something .. what a pain. I wish I was a New York shooter with the cities vast resources ( and unfortunately with lots of talented shooters) but I am a location shooter in a market that is unable to support me by itself and often find myself on regional jets with almost no carry -on. Yes I see holes - certainly!


Jun 29, 2009 at 08:29 PM
shoebox9
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p.6 #5 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


The Visatec Litepac isn't bad, this was on my short list before buying a Ranger RX. I loved it's size (especially the head) & weight.

It's shortcomings for me personally were that it only offers a 4 stop power range (not much chop for indoors, or even low power in the shade outdoors- I hate moving SB's back), isn't splash proof like the Rangers, has poor flash durations, has zero remote power control (ie needs PW's to trigger) and is stupidly expensive. (Even more so when you want to start collecting modifers.)

The Aussie sales rep would laugh when he read out the prices of the various reflectors etc, saying stuff like, "it's only money you know."

It's one thing to buy an inkjet printer below it's manufacturing cost, so you can be milked via the ink, but paying top $$$ for stuff that under performs against it's competition, and doesn't really do what you want it too (except for size and weight), is something else.



Jun 29, 2009 at 08:31 PM
mmurph
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p.6 #6 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


shoebox9 wrote:
It's shortcomings for me personally were that it only offers a 4 stop power range (not much chop for indoors, or even low power in the shade outdoors- I hate moving SB's back), isn't splash proof like the Rangers, has poor flash durations, has zero remote power control (ie needs PW's to trigger) and is stupidly expensive.


It has been refreshed, at least the Broncolor Mobil has been.

6 stop adjustment range, built in RFS (like Skyport - in all Bron packs now), asymmetrical power distribution.

I have compared the design with other units for waterproofness and used it in the rain. It is just as waterproof as others, just not billed that way. The first 3-4 inches of water just soak the plastic base of the SLA battery, no harm. Next step up are battery contacts, which are not a big deal. Electronics are all sealed up on top. You have to get 60% submersed to get into trouble. Controls are sealed under gel.

Buy used, going price has been $1,800 with head, battery, and charger. Sometimes 2 heads. You don;t need to buy other Bron stuff. Just a speedring, then Mola, Photoflex, etc.

FWIW I am quite happy with the Visatec 4 stop range - meets all of my needs in reality. 600 Ws max, 37 Ws min is adequate. Spilt that through two heads, you are down to 17Ws. Hell, wrap a 2xND around the head if you need to go to 8 Ws. Not often. Digital, so a joy to use. Smallest heads you will find to hang in the wind, or on a light, light boom. Use cinefoil for snpoots oir barn doors. Visatec is their portrait/wedding group.


Bron has always been too conservative on adjustment range - just a simple POT on analog units - to protect color temperatiure from tyros! Easy to reploace the POT on their monolights to provide large ranges, but at the cost of color temp.

Again, buy used, Current used price is under $1K. Maybe $850 with a head or two and battery.

Edited on Jun 29, 2009 at 10:41 PM · View previous versions



Jun 29, 2009 at 09:50 PM
mmurph
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p.6 #7 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


stevensdot wrote:
Quantum ... please no .. maybe for weddings or portraits but modern speed lights would be cheaper and a lot more flexible,


Quantun or Quantum-compatible batteries only were all I was talking about! (Black box, SP Systems, etc.) That was for the Dynalite Uni Jr or Canon 550EX.

Just a point that thyere are decent solutiuons out there. $500 is a pretty good starting pint, up to $1,500 is pretty easy. I don't care about brands at all, that was not my point..

There are Elinchrom Ranger, Hensel Porty, Elinchrom Quadra, all good systems that are similar. Just a point that thyere are decent solutiuons out there. Hell, even Speedotron has a battery pack The 400 ws Comet unit looks decent, I have heard good things about it. ...

Just a matter of doing the research and testing.

I can't judge others circumstances, just seems like there are a lot of options to try. Nothing is perfec t - this is a physical world, unless you want to go to CGI now ...

I know some are relative "newbies" too - not you, but others - and may not have tried many solutiuons. I have tried most solutions over the years.

There is good info online. Explore a bit, chat, ask questions, borrow or rent to see if it fits - there ios always a way. Folks are getting the job done, and the tools are 150% better than 10 years ago! That's all,

Cheers,



Jun 29, 2009 at 10:08 PM
stevensdot
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p.6 #8 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


I think there is a sea change going on with lights. We have been using legacy systems from the days of of film - well digital is different. We spent some time proving we can do anything with digital that we could do with film but now amateurs are doing work that only pros could offer a few years ago. To differentiate and or to compensate we now try to offer what our client cannot or will not do for themselves and one of those things seems to be the old cliche - "to photograph light" and that means light control. The commercial E6 world has faded and we now need products for new solutions. My local newspaper had a image on the sports page yesterday - a very good color shot of a coach made in full sun with balanced lighting - something not done last year and still rare but in my local newspaper which used to be thick with advertisements but now a very thin shadow of its former self with only one ad in the sports section - for Career Builders.

Edited on Jun 29, 2009 at 11:23 PM · View previous versions



Jun 29, 2009 at 10:46 PM
rickboden
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p.6 #9 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


The main difference I find since I moved to 35mm digital and retired the 4x5 and Hassleblad is that I need around two stops less light. That is like going from 2400w/s to 600w/s

Rick



Jun 29, 2009 at 11:15 PM
shoebox9
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p.6 #10 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


stevensdot wrote:
I think there is a sea change going on with lights... now amateurs are doing work that only pros could offer a few years ago. To differentiate and or to compensate we now try to offer what our client cannot or will not do for themselves and one of those things seems to be the old cliche - "to photograph light" and that means light control. The commercial E6 world has faded and we now need products for new solutions...


Great post.



Jun 30, 2009 at 04:58 AM
Peter Montanti
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p.6 #11 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Rick, I was reading this thread only because it was one of the recent threads listed and the subject title interested me. Being a White Lightening user and seeing Paul's name further prompted my interest to read. At this time I am satisfied with the flash setup I currently use so I am not even coming close to being excited or even interested in new flash developments. I have 2 WL 1200's and 2 3200 Ultras plus a great Speedotron Blackline system and several small old monopods. The 2 WL 1200's have been a pain since I bought them, they fire randomly and often if they are not 100% happy with the circuit they are plugged into. They do not like to share a circuit with the Speedotron. The 2 3200's are fine working strobes. The Blackline is a great system.

Peter

Architectural Photography by Peter Montanti, www.mountainphotographics.com



Jun 30, 2009 at 05:04 AM
rickboden
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p.6 #12 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Hi Peter,
Thanks. I use Norman lights and they have been workhorses too but heavy and I don't need the flash power anymore so I am looking for something lighter for travel with the bonus of battery operation and output control from the camera. Also one of my Norman packs died and I could not get it fixed so it is not a system I want to invest in. I have never owned Paul Buff's products but I would consider them mainly because of the new AB features and good customer service reputation.
BTW, a friend is an architectural photographer and he uses Comet. The 2400w/s packs are real beauties and tiny, about the size of a six-pack.

Rick



Jun 30, 2009 at 07:45 AM
stevensdot
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p.6 #13 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


i have used Paul Buff products for years (not exclusively - also Elinchrom and others) and I never had a problem, whatever limitations I had with the equipment I overcame - l work with what I have - my philosophy - I am former Special Forces - it is in my DNA. I recently sold the last of the White Lightnings off to a local stock photographer so now the only thing i own from Paul Buff is is some CyberSync triggers and I am very happy with them but I do not see this to be the topic of the post. I like being able to control the power remotely, I like big light sources and recently I realized that I prefer my light sources close to my subject - and that is when 2400, 1200 or even 600 watts with 5 stop range becomes limiting and out comes the speed lights.


Jun 30, 2009 at 10:23 AM
HappyCamp
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p.6 #14 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Brent Ward wrote:
Much easier for the top to drop down and compete with the bottom, than the bottom raising up to compete with the top.


Not from what I have seen. It is usually much harder for the top to drop down and compete with the bottom. If they drop down then they lose their name brand prestige.

Look at the car market. Has Rolls Royce, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Lamborghini, etc done a better job of dropping down in the market versus companies like Honda (Acura), Toyota (Lexus), Nissan (Infinitiy), and others moving up the market?

Much much easier to start at the bottom and work up the market than be at the top and go down.



Jul 03, 2009 at 08:42 PM
bka20d
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p.6 #15 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


HappyCamp wrote:
Not from what I have seen. It is usually much harder for the top to drop down and compete with the bottom. If they drop down then they lose their name brand prestige.

Look at the car market. Has Rolls Royce, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Lamborghini, etc done a better job of dropping down in the market versus companies like Honda (Acura), Toyota (Lexus), Nissan (Infinitiy), and others moving up the market?

Much much easier to start at the bottom and work up the market than be at the top and go down.


it really depends on the industry and ones perspective: people often make analogies between photographic equipment and cars but come to conclusions which may not hold up if you look at it slightly differently. using you example- i could easily make the case that mercedes benz sells more of its low and moderate price cars-the c and e classes , than it higher priced s class. if you look at how they design and market the cars, particularly since 2000, the not so subtle implication is that the that your lower priced models are shrunken s class vehicles, a message which is compelling for some who are considering those cars. additionally lexus, infiniti and acura all "distanced" themselves from their more humble lineage initially and compared themselves to audi, bmw and mercedes . a different perspective than your-

i happen to hate the car example because there are too many variables. i'll give you the one that i think is more illustrative: over the past several years, more and more high end clothing designers, from vera wang to ralph lauren have added less expensive lines of clothing to their empires as a compliment to their couture lines. the appeal of these less expensive lines to consumers is often tied to the cache of the designer.. do not underestimate the power of a marquee product or name. it is easier to start in saks fifth avenue and gain access to target than it is to do it the other way around.

in our own little photographic world, look at the frenzy that nikon created when they put the d3 chip in the lighter, less expensive d700, and when canon effectively put a tweaked 1ds3 chip in the 5d2 and compare the reception and reaction to the sony a900---from where i sit, it appears the advantage in this instance goes to those "moving down" rather than the one "moving up."



Jul 03, 2009 at 11:21 PM
digitaled
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p.6 #16 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


Well it looks like no ABMax shipping the first week of July...
Any clue on a shipping date??



Jul 04, 2009 at 01:00 AM
tgomearajr
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p.6 #17 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


digitaled wrote:
Well it looks like no ABMax shipping the first week of July...
Any clue on a shipping date??


I'm sure The Usual Suspect will show up soon with The Usual Excuse.

Tom



Jul 04, 2009 at 01:44 PM
teebat
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p.6 #18 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


What is wrong with the Vagabond II battery system ?


Jul 04, 2009 at 05:08 PM
tgomearajr
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p.6 #19 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


tgomearajr wrote:
I'm sure The Usual Suspect will show up soon with The Usual Excuse.

Tom


Can I predict the future or what!

Tom



Jul 08, 2009 at 11:24 AM
grossph
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p.6 #20 · Einstein Design Solution/Suggestion


I would like to chime in real quick with the "never know the difference" comment. I happen to have an engineering degree in Illumination (I have designed fixtures,system and done interior lighting design as well)...so I would like to think I know a thing or two about lighting. With that...light is light...the "quality" of light that people talk about is sort of a myth from a technical perspective.

The "quality" is almost entirely provide by the modifier. One flash manufactures 300ws/5600k light is exactly the same as another 300ws/ 5600k light (quanity and color temp are scientifically measurable, no subjectivity there). The differences are about flash duration, recycle times and again the modifiers which effect the way the light is "placed" onto the subject. If you know how to use the tool, you will create amazing photos, if you don't know how to use the tool, it doesn't matter how much it cost.

And to the "amateur vs pro" comment, I am a professional, I make money with my photography. I choose white lightning because of the build quality and customer service PCB provides. They are built like tanks...if my $500 head goes down, I know it can be repaired/replaced within a week. or if I need another one, its just $300 to $500, not $1000 and up...and the quality of the light the same. PCB staff has been great and I have never had an issue dealing with them (can't say the same for other manufactures) One of these days I will actually stop by their facilities just to say hello and thank them for a great product :-) (if the Einstein's ever get completed, i just might pick them up personally :-)

If you have two identical set ups from two manufactures (same color temp/ws spec and t time) (lets say three light) and would use the exact same modifiers (same manufactures modifiers on both) and you took a photos at say 1 shot every 3 seconds, it would be next to impossible for just about anyone to tell the difference.

So when it comes to purchasing flash units, I look for quality build (mine travel in pelican cases around the world, so they need to be tough) and customer service...White-Lightings have 5 year warranties, profoto's provides 2 year warranty...

Just my two cents....



Jul 30, 2009 at 09:41 AM
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