I need to add one small thing to this.
It seems that this is never brought up in discussions about this subject.
In the USA (state laws vary) You have to have 3 legal licenses to sell anything to anyone.
Smug mug or not. If you are selling to anyone you have to have a license to do so.
In Michigan you have to have a legal DBA filed with the county, A state sales tax license and a I.D. number and you have to have a letter of approval from the zoning commission in the township wherever your PC will upload photos from. Call it your home office if you will.
So without those not only may you be stepping on the toes of a contracted Pro but you also may be violating the laws of this country.
You should research those laws and see what you need to do to be legal.
It falls along the lines of what Scott was talking about. If you want to sell then you are Pro. Getting everything legal will help that mindset and help you consider yourself a Pro.
Once you pay all the fees involved you ay reconsider your idea of selling at 40% less than the Pro too..
The way I see it. If you contact the contracted Pro would be your best bet. You can sell under him and not have to spend all the fees involved. You also will not have to spend the money on insurance. Although you should have some anyway.
It looks like your best bet here..
Chip, Let me say that even though as Paul put it, you made your bed, you are the type of parent with a camera (no offense) that I like to see. One, that even though they originally thought they had a great idea, understands the errors made and accepts it. Too many times I hear the exact opposite, and sometimes very rudely. Your understanding and acceptance should be bottled and given to all new camera owners. I was just at a game where a parent with a camera opened the gate to get a better shot of her son on first base when a line drive shot through the now open gate and nailed another parent square in the back, because the parent with a cam did not understand that not only is opening the gate during play is against the rules, but she came very close to getting slammed in the head. My first thought was, man, I hope she has insurance.
“Does anyone have some extra space between turn one and turn four on the straight away? I'll take lots of pictures of your car and give you free pictures for you and your sponsors if you let me invade your space for a bit.... Oooooo... and I can even make homemade cookies for your family and crew”
When someone is busting his/her but at 70 to 90 events a year taking 500/1000 pics at an event and you hear stories like this
Mikekel, you stated - I take many photos of my son's games, I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots and if I see a pro at a game taking photos I put the camera away, actually if it's covered I don't bring the camera and I do buy their shots, encourage others to buy their shots.
I am going to my son's soccer tournament this weekend and I am pretty sure they have a hired photographer shooting the tournament. I plan on taking my D300 and 300 F/2.8 and capture some great photos of my son. I am not shooting to sell any photos, just capture alot of my son. I don't feel this is taking away from the pro photographer, so I don't feel the need to leave my gear in the car. Am I wrong here?
James, I'm not sure what you're asking when you say " I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots" - does this mean you are taking images of their kids, too, and if so, what are you doing with these?
Just because you don't see a "pro" working a game doesn't mean one isn't contracted to cover the league (or tournament). Most times I've worked youth tournaments and leagues we've organized the shooters to make sure at least one game of each team is covered and we bust our tails to get at least 5 GREAT shots of every kid (even those who don't play - this is why warm-ups can be important) - I keep a note pad on my monopod and tally the player's number and how many shots I got of him or her. We will only go back to cover a team a second time if we've missed a particular player (and then usually only at the request of a parent who maybe reviewed the images and wants something more or different, and this normally comes with some sort of refundable deposit and usually it only if we can fit it into our schedule of covering the other teams).
I am also a Dad who takes shots of my kid, as are many on this board. However, I know for a fact that nobody has contracted with his school (talked with the AD and the coaches). If you do take shots of your son, and there is a pro assigned, you are technically taking potential sales of the images taken of your boy away from the "pro". Of course you have the right to photograph your own son, but you might want to check out the pro's shots and if he gets some good images, support his/her hard work by buying something.
As a working fulltime pro I will comment on parents who shoot nice equipment, I usually am shooting a couple of bodies 1dMKIII with a 300 2.8 or a 70-200 or 400 2.8, I have run across some parents that have equal equipment and if I see someone I do ask them if they are shooting their kids and if they say yes I leave it at that. If I lose a few sales its not that big of deal, I started shooting my kids 12 years ago but never shot anyone elses kids, I have exclusive contracts with leagues and tournaments and would not nor have not told a parent not to take a picture and james I would not worry about taking your equipment ith you. the way most contracts are written it protects us from competing against other people who are there to take and sell pictures and the vast majority of parents don't, i'm sure some take team shots but I can't worry about one or two teams when I am covering on average over 100. Take the camera and have fun and get some great shots
I think the consensus is if you are only taking photos of your child and not selling any photos and not shooting from where you are not supposed to be - you’re good to go. Once you start selling photos or are taking photos from areas off limits to parents (and not the photog on site) - you’re encroaching and have overstepped the "parental" bounds.
Michael
james.d wrote:
Mikekel, you stated - I take many photos of my son's games, I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots and if I see a pro at a game taking photos I put the camera away, actually if it's covered I don't bring the camera and I do buy their shots, encourage others to buy their shots.
I am going to my son's soccer tournament this weekend and I am pretty sure they have a hired photographer shooting the tournament. I plan on taking my D300 and 300 F/2.8 and capture some great photos of my son. I am not shooting to sell any photos, just capture alot of my son. I don't feel this is taking away from the pro photographer, so I don't feel the need to leave my gear in the car. Am I wrong here?...Show more →
I was actually just asked yesterday to come to a local baseball game tonight and take action shots of the kids on the team. It never occurred to me there might be a league photographer ... the parents never mentioned one. Hmmmm. I'm really glad I ran across this thread, because now I'll have the knowledge to at least ask before I get started.
Thanks to the OP for bringing this up, and to all who responded.
Sincerely, a lurker who didn't even realize she was about to make a potential mistake.
dmwierz, I think my post was confusing. I was just stating what Mikekel had said in his post and then added my question, which was - Basically I wanted to know the feelings of a Pro Photographer who is at the soccer tournament but sees me shooting photos of MY son. I may take a couple of the other kids as I did last season and then made a dvd of photos and music to give to the parents at the end of the season. I am not charging anyone and not giving prints away. If I saw the photos that the Pro took and liked them, I would support him by purchasing some. I guess the proper thing to do would let the Pro know that I am only shooting my son so he knows my intention is not to take away his business.
Sorry for the confusion
The secondary issue is how often a league photographer shows up and what kind of photos they take when they are there. I prefer action photos at points in a game more than a photo of my son with a hockey stick in his hands.
It's really a good idea to get involved with leagues and help them understand what kind of photos you are interested in and helping them choose a good company if they are putting someone under contract. The right company makes a world of difference.
I agree with much that has been said here, but this is a very touchy topic, and one I would like to comment on. I as well have shot both as a contracted event photographer and as a sideline parent. In my eyes, it can be very simple, do your homework, obtain approval, and honor any contracts that may be in place.
In addition, to give away photos, (as mentioned earlier) regardless of your skills and/or photography status is what hurts us all as photographers, especially with youth sports where most work without a contract and struggle to sell images. IMO, there is a huge difference in just taking some tournament/event photos as a parent, versus showing up at a event with the intent to sell photos at and/or after the event. Regardless of what sport or event you are shooting, one should obtain approval before they even attempt to sell any photos (even after the event on-line). In the event that there is a contracted or exclusive photographer hired, the answer should be sorry NO deal...............
Now with that being said, if there is no FORMAL contracted photographer and you have obtained permission to be there shooting, or are in attendance as a parent, club or league photographer, please use common sense, act as a professional, and be courteous to others in attendance. I don't get bothered often, but I can tell you that I always do my homework up-front, understand photography wise who is in attendance, and act accordingly when a contract is in place. A couple weekends ago, I was at a regional VB tournament as a club photographer and parent, and was rudely approached by a on-site VB photographer. I knew that they did NOT have a formal contract but was still courteous, did not hand out any business cards when approached by parents. I politely told the VB photographer, Im a club photographer and parent, and its none of there business who or what I am shooting. I even gave them one of my business cards thinking that they may contact me so I could tell them how horribly wrong their approach was to folks in attendance with camera's.
lastly, I like this point made by Scott. (well said). I always try to treat people as I want to be treated myself.
and I'll add on to this a bit...the part about being a parent and giving away photos for Free.
I'm on all sides of the spectrum:
I'm a parent with three children, 2 are old enough to play sports and both my daughters are in Travel soccer programs.
I'm a coach as well and Asst coach my one daughters GU9 Travel A team
I'm a photographer as well - PT at that, shoot some, but not a lot of events (mainly cycling)
....so I have "all the gear" and "look" the professional (multible bodies, 300 f/2.8, etc) even when I'm a parent showing up to watch my older daughers games and shooting pictures of my kids for our basement wall. Even the team I coach for, I'll usually take one or two games a year during a multi game tournament to photograph my child (and team) just so she doesn't keep asking "why don't you take pictures of me playing". I have permission from the clubs as well as the parents (I ask ahead of time incase a parent doesn't want pictures posted on my website as well to make sure there was not a club photog already in place.)
What I do is offer the pictures at a discount to the other team parents which is usually a 25% discount. No one complains about not receiveing Free photos - doesn't really matter much to me because over the last two seasons I've only had 2 or 3 parents actually buy photos from me - I'm scratchhing my head on this one I'm taking photos better than anything they have ever seen or will ever get of their child and still no one orders Go figure.
My take is if you are showing up with an inexpensive DLSR and kit lens taking pictures of your kid and team and want to give the images away for free to the parents - have at it. But if your on this board, you probably have a better than basic camera body and lens and have "aspirations" to be more than a parent shooting your child at a game - you now have most likely crossed over that threshold of being just a parent at a game giving away free "snaps" to that wanting to start making a buck Photog and think giving away free photos is a way to get your foot in the door - don't go there!
Chip, I made the same mistake when I first started out, once free, they will never buy. Its been 10 yrs later for me at the same school with my kids, and I do not offer unless approached, but with other schools that I shoot, no problem in purchasing.
Paul and Dennis's advice is right on. Learn from what you did and don't do it again. Like someone said in one of the posts that most on this board frown from giving out free items, it only makes them want more for free. How True!
Paul's response is one I want to save for future threads and posts in cyberspace. It was very well put w/o being too harsh like I probably would have been. It was PERFECT!
Take pictures of your kid and enjoy him!!!!!! I photograph as many of my daughters HS softball games as possible (ones I can attend). I do it for her and I and for the memories that the images will provide years down the road. Am I a good enough photographer to sell photos of the other players on her team to their parents; yes I am! Do I, once in a great while. And, only when I have an outstanding image of that player. I will show it to the parent(s) and let them know it is for sale if they would like it. If not I use it in my portfolio.
Why, you ask? Because it is not about the money. It is about capturing images of my daughter that we can share for many, many years to come. No amount of money can replace the images that I get of my daughter. Stop giving away work, stop worrying about the other parents wanting free pictures and simply photograph your son for the pure pleasure that it provides. Good luck and enjoy
It may not be worth the headache. I recently had my credentials from LSU revoked, and I'm confident it was because some old "pro" felt threatened, b*&T$ched, and then fabricated a story that I was breaking copyright/trademark laws.
Being an attorney, I let Collegiate Images know what I thought about the allegations...But, ultimately, I still lost the opportunity to be there for the regionals, and am still fighting to get my creds back for the upcoming season.
The moral of the story is...If you move into someone else's territory, you'd better be willing to fight for it.
Fireman Rich wrote:
Stop giving away work, stop worrying about the other parents wanting free pictures and simply photograph your son for the pure pleasure that it provides. Good luck and enjoy
...and be thinking about what you want to do with your photographic skills and equipment when your kids eventually grow up and move away. That's the boat I'm in now....kids married and gone, so what do I do with all this "stuff" I've accumulated over the years while taking pics of them at sporting events? Be thinking now about where you want this to go in the long run and make it sustainable.
I'm taking photos better than anything they have ever seen or will ever get of their child and still no one orders