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Archive 2009 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

ovredal73
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

As the electronic viewfinder on the Micro 4/3 system is quite a promising new feature to remove the old clunky mirror system and make smaller cameras, I am wondering if this will be the "new way" also for the main systems? My 5D2´s live view function certainly feels like a precursor to an electronic viewfinder. Personally I would be surprised if this will not happen in the next few years.

With a resulting shorter distance from sensor to lens, will it require a new mount making our EOS lenses obsolete? I am not technically knowledgeable enough to quite understand the ramifications of this possibility.

Any thoughts?

André

Jan 21, 2009 at 04:33 AM

eosfun
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Hejhej, André,

It will happen in the near future. Even pro cameras will change. Think like camera bodies with different viewfinder systems like the older F1 and F1n system cameras. Short back mount lenses would even be able to fit in a backward compatible design of the EOS mount. Just like EF-s lenses and EF lenses both fit on the APS-C bodies. Don't be afraid Canon will leave all the EOS mount owners behind in a desert. They have learned their lessons from the past when the FD mount was replaced by the EOS mount. It cost Canon 10 years to regain the trust of a customer base that was not happy with the change of mount. Future fun will be EOSfun

or I will change my alias

Ha det bra!

Jan 21, 2009 at 04:41 AM

Alex Nail
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

I for one will be sad if and when the veiwfinder goes. I just cant see any other display method being as good

Jan 21, 2009 at 04:50 AM

eosfun
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

An optical viewfinder and EVF are perfectly well compatible, it's a matter of how camera manufacturers would implement those kind of viewfinders. So the optical viewfinder is not necessarily going to disappear, I don't see this happening soon anyway. Interchangeable viewfinders, top or waistlevel electronic viewfinders combined with optical viewfinders, they are all new applications of existent technoology. It's a matter of time that these will be combined in a modern SLR type camera. Have EOSfun!

Jan 21, 2009 at 04:54 AM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

it could and probably will happen. but first EVF tech has to get a whole lot better

It could have advantages in focusing aids that could be simulated on the EVF and also the size of the EVF could be improved over some of the vfinders we have now. Personaly I would still want to the cam upto my eye as it seems more natural and also more stable than at arms lenght like most p&s's make you do now.

Jan 21, 2009 at 05:14 AM

ovredal73
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

I shoot mostly on the street with manual focus and don´t like the P/S method of shooting either, but the thing I like about the live view is that I can zoom in and check critical focus (when time allows) in a way I never was able to do before, and if this is implementable in an EVF, I would be all for it.
Also it would be brighter and could have 100 percent lifesize field of view on a 50mm.

Would hate to have to sell (cheaply) all my "old" EOS and alt lenses for it, though.

However it would probably not be good for your eyesight to have an electronic screen that close to the eye for hours on end every day...?

Jan 21, 2009 at 05:25 AM

Mike V
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

The tech exists now and is in use in high end video cameras.

The problem is that it is power hungry and expensive.

Just a matter of time really.

Jan 21, 2009 at 06:59 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

I guess the could remove the mirror and shutter screen and keep the same flange distance. Best of both worlds.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Jan 21, 2009 at 07:08 AM

ovredal73
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Yakim Peled wrote:
I guess the could remove the mirror and shutter screen and keep the same flange distance. Best of both worlds.
Happy shooting, Yakim.

I hope you are right. Would suck to have to start all over, lens-wise unless there were some amazing benefits (smaller of course).

Jan 21, 2009 at 07:16 AM

abam
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

that would eat quite a bit of power, but i would go for it if the end product, and the camera handling, wouldn't be in any way affected by the switch.

cheers.

Jan 21, 2009 at 07:17 AM

Dawei Ye
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

How is the lens supposed to focus without the mirror? Contrast detect AF would need to speed up considerably to become usable

Jan 21, 2009 at 07:24 AM

Marcus Watts
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

eosfun wrote:
Hejhej, André,

They have learned their lessons from the past when the FD mount was replaced by the EOS mount. It cost Canon 10 years to regain the trust of a customer base that was not happy with the change of mount. Future fun will be EOSfun

or I will change my alias

Ha det bra!

Where did you get that from? it was changing the lens mount that allowed Canon to offer a vastly superior auto focus system to anything else and created the huge jump from Nikon which had hitherto been the favorite camera amongst pro photographers.

That was back in the late eighties and Nikon have only recently caught up (and in some cases overtaken) Canon in that department.

Jan 21, 2009 at 08:15 AM

Ben Horne
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

I will not buy a camera if it has an electronic viewfinder. I sure hope this never happens on the digital bodies. I absolutely hate electronic viewfinders, even if they improve from their current state. They separate you from your subject, which is the opposite of an optical viewfinder which gives you a special connection with your subject.

Edited on Jan 21, 2009 at 11:10 AM · View previous versions

Jan 21, 2009 at 08:30 AM

ovredal73
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Ben Horne wrote:
I will not buy a camera if it has an electronic viewfinder. I sure hope this never happens on the digital bodies. I absolutely hate electronic viewfinders, even if they improve from their current state. They separate you from your subject, which is the opposite of an electronic viewfinder which gives you a special connection with your subject.

It probably would need some time to work out kinks, like moving from film to acceptable digital, but I am sure we would get used to it, if it was the only option given.

Jan 21, 2009 at 08:36 AM

Allan Bruce
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

After reading the review on the G1 I would say that the technology is getting there but still not good enough. Low light is the biggest problem for EVFs and this is one area that a lot of people will grumble at.

It would be nice to have a smaller, lighter system however. I see Canon introducing it soon (perhaps PMA?) but initially only for the lower end cameras. Eventually I think they will announce a pro body once the tech is good enough for the professional user.

Jan 21, 2009 at 09:46 AM

cgardner
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

The reflex mirror/focal plane shutter, hot shoe, and PC socket are all legacy designs of the 35mm era which have become functional limits:

Lose the reflex mirror and focal plane shutter and the x-sync limit for flash disappears.

Lose the reflex mirror and focal plane shutter and automatic exposure will improve because the camera is constantly evaluating what the sensor is actually recording at the pixel level, not what is seen off larger zones of the viewfinder.

Lose the five-pin mechanical connectors interface of hot shoe in favor of a TosLink style digital / optical interface an it will open new horizons for flash design including modular radio control (where allowed by regulation). Change the mechanical design of the foot to something along the lines of the Minolta design for more secure connection. Create an adapter for legacy hot shoe EX flash gear

Replace the PC connector - the worst electrical connector ever devised -- with a better standard connector.

I love the EVF on my Minolta D7Hi. It shows exposure in WYSIWYG fashion via LCD viewfinder brightness and live histogram. The display can be optically zoomed for very precise manual focusing. In low light it shifted to monochrome mode with near night vision capability. It has no x-sync limit with flash.

If Canon ever creates a larger sensor (1.6 or greater) I'd buy one in a heartbeat because I've seen the other design advantages with flow from the elimination of the focal plane shutter and mirror.

Chuck

Jan 21, 2009 at 10:11 AM

eosfun
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Marcus Watts wrote: it was changing the lens mount that allowed Canon to offer a vastly superior auto focus system to anything else

Absolutely right, I was not denying that at all, I just wanted to say this was at a certain cost. The current EOS mount has been designed to be future proof, but it left a lot of photographers who were heavily invested in FD glass behind. It's true that Canon gained market share by this move, but they also lost customers to Nikon who did a much more gradient upgrade strategy to protect the assets of photographers anfd studios with considerable investments in manual focus glass.

I am sure that Canon will implement future developments, like different viewfinder systems and new optical designs following the new opportunities of this technology, with respect to their lagacy and customer base they built upon the last 22 years.

Ben Horne wrote:
I will not buy a camera if it has an electronic viewfinder. I sure hope this never happens on the digital bodies.

Why not Ben? In fact the latest generations with live view effectively already have an electronic viewfinder mounted on the back of the camera. Placing components differently on the camerabody might be very helpful for their effective use and give photographers better use of the digital screen.

For amateur markets the Powershot XS10/SX1 bridge camera types are an interesting indication of where the DSLR market could go. I for one like the design with a swivel screen very much and the EVF is good enough for most photography of the average amateur. Professionals have different requirements, a pro body DSLR with interchangeable viewfinders like the original F1 and F1n have would give them the opportunity to have an optical viewfinder or electronic viewfinder at choice. Chuck summed up only a few of the advantages that become available. More speed and more/better wide angles lenses with no retrofocus design on a short back focus mount are some other advantages that the professional would appreciate. For Canon this would mean an extension of their system and a boost for their professional image amongst medium format photographers who are used to top level viewfinders. For us: even more EOSfun

Jan 21, 2009 at 10:17 AM

Chrono1081
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Ugh if electronic viewfinders happened I'm going back to film.

Jan 21, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Ben Horne
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

eosfun wrote:
Why not Ben? In fact the latest generations with live view effectively already have an electronic viewfinder mounted on the back of the camera. Placing components differently on the camerabody might be very helpful for their effective use and give photographers better use of the digital screen.

I do not think electronic viewfinders will ever be good enough to replace good old fashion optics. You have special connection with your subject with an optical viewfinder. With an electronic viewfinder, it's like you're watching your subject on a TV screen. The connection is lost.

Jan 21, 2009 at 11:14 AM

jjlphoto
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · What if Canon removes mirror from nextgen cameras?

Optical viewfinders will never disappear. You can't cradle the camera steady, and usually the camera gets held out away from the face. A poor way to compose and shoot.

Add to that, most people loose their close vision at 40. I'm 48 and have excellent 20/20 vision at anthing from 2' to infinity, so optical viewfinders render me a tack sharp image. But electronic viewfinder/displays? Can't see them worth a darn. To do live view, I've got to fumble for my reading glasses.

Jan 21, 2009 at 11:24 AM

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