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Archive 2008 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

  
 
Conner999
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


If only such were the case. Unfortunately, on many forums, and sadly FM is becoming one of them, no well-intentioned deed goes unpunished these days.

If you find the issue untenable (who cares what anyone else thinks - it's your money), best just to quietly return/exchange the camera, sit back and see how other early adopters fair.

To a fanboy the photo universe is exactly one person wide - if they don't have the issue, no one does.

That said, should they be unfortunate enough to collect a bad copy of X, then the crisis is nothing short of earth-shattering in proportion; requiring of mass recalls (), same day repair turn-around service, compensation for pain & suffering or, gasp, the dreaded heretical "switch".

If you're at all concerned, sit back, save your $$, pop some popcorn and wait and see what happens. If what made you uncomfortable turns out to be a prevalent issue, it won't be long before the 'net is awash in righteous indignation and cries of "how could we have known..", etc., etc.

If not, you get to the option of buying another production-lot copy (or another camera) at a lower price x weeks/months hence.

---
I started this thread in the interest of having an intelligent discussion on what I felt was a legitimate issue with the 5D Mark II. Nobody has an explanation why these black dots are there, or why they only appear exactly on the right side of blown highlights. But based on these kinds of replies, I can see this thread devolving into something quite nasty. I'm sorry I ever brought it up.








Dec 05, 2008 at 03:17 PM
Sam N
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


I've heard people say this is due to raw conversion, oversharpening, lenses, high ISO, etc. It's pretty clear that none of these are the case. It's not CA-related if it shows up on the right side at any part of the frame. It's not a high-ISO-only issue because some of the samples were at ISO200 (though it does show up more at high ISOs... probably because it's easier to blow out highlights). I think it's got something to do with the sensor or the A/D conversion or maybe (hopefully) the way the data is being recorded in the raw file.

Anyway I think it's a valid topic to discuss. Other cameras don't exhibit this behavior and the 5D2 does. It's not a very big deal to me, but I'd still like to know more about why and under what conditions it's occurring.



Dec 05, 2008 at 03:27 PM
ward1066
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Exif

http://upload.pbase.com/image/106724985/original.jpg



Dec 05, 2008 at 03:40 PM
apdieb
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Thanks for the EXIF... But on a separate topic.. CHECK YOUR EMAIL.. 580 badboys waiting.


Dec 05, 2008 at 04:09 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Aaa, the flash did not fire, that must be it!


Dec 05, 2008 at 04:11 PM
signet35
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


One evening a couple nights ago, I was standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine, holding my 5DMII, when a well dressed, but obviously tipsy Japanese gentleman wearing a tie with the Canon logo stumbled out of a bar and came up to me, crying and repeating "Back Lots!" "Back Lots!" (or so I thought)

So I directed him to the Universal Studios theme park...




Dec 05, 2008 at 04:15 PM
skibum5
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Rubber Soul wrote:
It's not a RAW processing issue. As I wrote in the original message, the black dots appear in the RAW data itself. There's a link up there showing the black dots in the actual RAW file before any demosaic process is even done.

I remember Chuck Westfall saying that Canon altered the way signal readouts are done in the 5Dmk2 sensor (compared to the 1Dsmk3 sensor). Perhaps this black dot phenomenon is a unforeseen side effect of that. I really hope this is something that could be fixed in a simple firmware update, as some people have already implied. Otherwise
...Show more

wow, it is getting crazy

the 24-105L flare recall
the 70-300 IS portrait blur due to barrel sag and poor construction recall
the (apparently) major stop down focus shift on the 50 1.2L
the MkIII AF recall
I feel like I am forgetting one
and i'm suspicious that very bright light can trick the 40D AF

hopefully it is just on a few copies
i've haven't seen it yet but i havent taken all that many shots yet an dnot of a very varied array either

only thing i see so far is that the read noise on the upper right corner of mine seems tobe a lot worse than on any other part of the frame and gets lots of red
hopefully it wont show up with regualr photography and only in black frame testing



Dec 05, 2008 at 04:50 PM
nathanlake
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


So, does this mean after the fix the black dots will be on the box rather than in the picture?


Dec 05, 2008 at 05:04 PM
Photon
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


signet35 wrote:
One evening a couple nights ago, I was standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine, holding my 5DMII, when a well dressed, but obviously tipsy Japanese gentleman wearing a tie with the Canon logo stumbled out of a bar and came up to me, crying and repeating "Back Lots!" "Back Lots!" (or so I thought)

So I directed him to the Universal Studios theme park...



Did you consider that he might have needed to get to Big Lots to buy a few thousand black dot 5DMkII that were not supposed to be released before January?



Dec 05, 2008 at 05:25 PM
CMOS
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Will Patterson wrote:
Doesn't bother me much. It'll probably be fixed by a firmware update.

You guys really are trying your best to hate this camera, aren't you?


Firmware can't fix everything. The 50 1.2L focus issues weren't correctable in firmware, and neither were the focus issues in the 1D3 fixable completely in firmware.

But one would still hope for that.



Dec 05, 2008 at 05:25 PM
Will Patterson
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


CMOS wrote:
Firmware can't fix everything. The 50 1.2L focus issues weren't correctable in firmware, and neither were the focus issues in the 1D3 fixable completely in firmware.

But one would still hope for that.



Those are mechanical issues, this is more software related (atleast that's what I think). Especially if this happened with the old 1D's and it was corrected in firmware like someone mentioned.



Dec 05, 2008 at 07:05 PM
walter23
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


BennyR wrote:
Question is, why didn't Canon catch this before release?


Maybe Canon erroneously assumed its users were going to avoid overblowing things by 9 stops

I'm mostly kidding, I can see how this could be very problematic (as in the example image of the night-time skyline).



Dec 05, 2008 at 07:12 PM
Sam N
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


It doesn't look like there was a 1DII firmware update that fixed anything like this:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dm2/eos1dmk2_firmware-e.html

There's something for the 1DsII about "horizontal line noise" when a custom function for silent shooting is enabled, but I don't think that's similar to this problem either:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dsm2/eos1dsmk2_firmware-e.html

Same thing goes for all the other 1D models.



Dec 05, 2008 at 07:13 PM
Caleb Williams
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


bobbytan wrote:
God damn .... the 5D II must be the worst DSLR in history .... it's terribly over-exposed and noisy as hell. I think you should return it for those reasons. Either that or we should start a thread on "How Not to Take a Picture".


Don't worry, there's hope for this picture.

Original
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/calebrw/_mg_0166_orginal_web.jpg

100% crop
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/calebrw/_mg_0166_orginal_crop.jpg

Fix it in ACR 4.6
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/calebrw/_mg_0166_acr_no_nr_crop.jpg

Cut out the noise
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/calebrw/_mg_0166_acr_nr_crop.jpg

And boom:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/calebrw/_mg_0166_acr_nr_web.jpg



Dec 05, 2008 at 07:43 PM
bobbytan
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


You cleaned it up nicely, but the color balance is still off.


Caleb Williams wrote:
Don't worry, there's hope for this picture.



Dec 05, 2008 at 08:21 PM
Mike V
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


There was a thread on here ages ago about a very similar problem with a 1Ds Mk II (I think, I can't remember exactly what camera).

I remember sample images of the ceiling of an airport terminal or something and there was a black double image of blown highlights from some round lights in the ceiling.

The guy got a couple of replacement bodies with no fix.

Can anyone remember this thread?

The effect looked a lot like this.




Dec 05, 2008 at 08:21 PM
stits
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


I cancelled my order a few days back with amazon, between this and my trip to colombia being over I really don't need this till early February now. I have a 1D III body and I guess if this kinda stuff doesn't improve I'm going to end up going to the dark side and selling all my glass


Dec 05, 2008 at 08:25 PM
bka20d
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


JFB318 wrote:
It appears, from other forums I have read, that several folks have found this same problem with their 1DSmkIII as well


if you can direct me to those forums i would be very interested in reading the threads...i have been shooting with a 1ds3 for a year and never experienced anything like this...
regards,



Dec 05, 2008 at 08:38 PM
theSuede
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


On a more serious note -

That looks like "pixel-binning to the left" and botching the bit overflow routines... "#buffer overflow/2=0" - giving the same coloured pixel (on the Bayer array) to the right of a blown pixel a "black" value. Sloppy. But if the binning routine isn't hard-wired into the Digic IV chip, then the issue should be addressable by a firmware update.

On a more serious not - again -

This means that Canon is using binning techniques (averaging type noise reduction) to boost their low-light performance. So much for "RAW is untouched sensor readouts"... I've suspected this for some time now as high ISO low-contrast resolution suffers a bit more than it technically should with the latest body releases.



Dec 05, 2008 at 08:51 PM
Caleb Williams
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


bobbytan wrote:
You cleaned it up nicely, but the color balance is still off.


I didn't want to think about that one. I could just blue it up a bit.



Dec 05, 2008 at 09:44 PM
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