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Archive 2008 · Preseason NBA with the D3

  
 
andypep
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p.3 #1 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Max, how are you getting your Kelvin readings? Is it just trial and error? How would you advise us to do it (maybe a great post for the BLOG)!!!

I have heard that you can get Kelvin settings by asking the TV camera guys, as they often shoot using a Kelvin setting, but I have never tried it.



Oct 24, 2008 at 11:36 AM
PShizzy
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p.3 #2 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Bonner, it was very weird to see the OKC Durant's (my name for them) in action. I forgot what happened to the folk in Seattle (the pillaging of their franchise, because the taxpayers didn't want to pay for another stadium so a billionaire wouldn't have to), and honestly wondered if a D-League team was brought up in expansion.

You give me way too much credit. AWA (the old name) is definitely in my wheelhouse, but trust me, there are a bunch of amazing photogs who cover the Suns regularly. You just don't have access to them.

Andy, trial and error. I try to avoid AWB, so I went Tungsten, which is a bit cold. After that, I heard from another photog that he liked 3800. So I tried a few shots a few years back. Hated it. Too warm for my taste. So I went 3500, thought it was almost there, then came to 3400.

The Nikons don't do 100 point increments, I believe their shifts are related to mireds, so the closest I get is 3450, which works just fine, though with Active D-Lighting set to Low, I notice a slight warmth, and I may adjust by going the next setting down in camera.

To be honest, I just figure it out by sight. This is why I miss my mk2. It had the most color accurate screen of all my cameras. The D3 actually is also very good. But also, you can shoot white, check the RGB histo, and go from there.

You're right, this is blogworthy. I just need to find the time to write this all out and get the right material to present.

Thanks!

Max



Oct 24, 2008 at 12:20 PM
bonnerkopf
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p.3 #3 · Preseason NBA with the D3


You are too modest, my friend. I have seen a lot of goss's work, and he is good too, but you be ballin'.

As far as blog worthy, for sure. Just post a link on blog to this thread and save yourself some time!



Oct 24, 2008 at 04:12 PM
Yamil R. Sued
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p.3 #4 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Max,

This is a great Post!!

Dude, get ready to Roll Hard Tomorrow Night at the ASU/Oregon game!! Dude, we are going to carry some serious hardware on the sidelines and endzones!! Let's have a "real" dinner instead of the Tri-Color Hot Dogs at the press room See ya tomorrow Homey!!



Oct 25, 2008 at 12:22 AM
jkurkjia
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p.3 #5 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Hi Max!

I always felt that if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all. That said I've decided to go ahead and say something anyway, sorry. You have received a lot of praise for your pictures so I think you can handle a little criticism to go along with all the "great job" comments.

I'm very sorry to say your pictures leave me a little cold. It's hard for me to imagine that anybody would buy all that great gear and then use it to just take pictures of basketball players. Where the heck are the pictures of the cheerleaders/dancers? Come on man, anybody sitting on the floor can shoot the basketball players; where is the skill in that? Photographic skill is when you capture the right cheerleader moment ... you know what I mean, when she is leaning over looking at you with a sultry smile on her face; now that is what sports photography is all about.

Well, good luck with your new gear. Oh, one more thing, I highly recommend keeping a long distance between you and Yamil Saturday night. First off, I've seen him get clobbered on the sidelines right on my TV set; he is definitely bad luck, so maintain a safe distance between you and him. Second, IMO you should be somewhat concerned about Yamil's "honey" comment (refer to his post above); the best way to discourage him is again to keep your distance ... enough said!

I hope you take my criticism and sage words of wisdom above as constructive; that was my intent from the get-go. I tried very hard to get my considerably important message across without also hurting your feelings. So please, pay close attention to what I said. Read my wonderful advice above carefully, maybe thirty or forty times to be absolutely certain there is no confusion on your part, and then go forth and do a better job the next time you are around a basketball court.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian



Edited on Oct 25, 2008 at 08:13 AM · View previous versions



Oct 25, 2008 at 03:08 AM
pattywatty
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p.3 #6 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Max, I too had both systems for awhile but needed to lose one for $ reasons and stayed with D3 and have been very happy, still learning the optimal settings, but very happy. Question: what do you have your AF tracking set to (i.e., off, short, normal, long) and have you tried the 3-D focusing?

Thanks for all of your comments, inputs and most of all the outstanding pics!

Patrick



Oct 25, 2008 at 06:55 AM
feharmat
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p.3 #7 · Preseason NBA with the D3


PShizzy wrote:
http://www.pshizzy.com/files/durant.jpg

Another one from tonight. Same settings, but I tried Active D-Lighting set to Low.



...Your initial samples looked more promising but this one "broke the glass".
The color rendition is preposterous (especially skin tones).

Based on these images, I am having a hard time finding an illustrated reason for adopting both systems, and much less switching from the 1D3 to the D3, though.

It would be interesting, though, to hear your comments on the D3+70-200 VR vs. 1D3 70-200 IS, because (technically speaking) it is still a disadvantage on the D3, for this application, though.

Thanks for the samples and hard work, though!







Oct 25, 2008 at 10:19 AM
PShizzy
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p.3 #8 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Joe,

I do shoot the dancers. I just never really post images of them. I'm also quite aware of Yamil's powers to attract random violence. He was actually using my 300 2.8 when he got clocked one time. I ran over to see if he was ok, and he goes "your lens is fine". Not really what I was worried about (well, I didn't want to outright say it. heh). And I believe he called me hoMey, with an M.

Pat, I left mine on normal, and it seems fine. I tried 3D focusing for a minute, but didn't like it for sports.

feharmat, here's whats funny: I used the exact same process on this image that I used on my previous images. There is no "subjective toning" in my process, so that's not the different. And my shots are the exact same settings in camera they were last week. With the exception of Active D-Lighting being set to LOW rather than OFF. So, what I see here is that the Active D-lighting has warmed the image up.

If what you're seeing is that the skintones are a little orange, I agree with you. I think that's just Nikons color rendition vs Canons. But that too is subjective. I'm very used to the Canon look. I'm sure if I was going the other way around, I'd say "oh that Canon looks too blue". This is why I kept the process on all images from each game the same. Everyone can make their own choices on whether they like an image or not.

The images were not meant to sway anyone. They were meant for display, and I like sharing what I do with others. As for my reasons to switch? a few. After countless 70-200 2.8 IS and non IS lenses, on countless bodies, I've come to realize, it's just not a great lens. Good? sure. And from where I sit, the 70-200 on a 1.3x crop is actually a little tight. In fact, the first shot of Shaq here was shot at 70mm. Had I been using the 1D3 and 70-200, I probably would have clipped Shaq, and therefore lost the image. I even considered, at one point, getting the Sigma 50-150, because I needed a wider solution than the 70-200 on a 1D.

So with that in mind, the 70-200 VR and D3 made sense. Considering it's 12mp, if you cropped the D3 to 1.3x crop relative, it would be about 8mp (remember, the 12mp 5D and 8mp mk2 share the same pixel size, so that's how I came to this conclusion with a 12mp D3). 8mp is more than enough, so I can crop if I need it, but the extra wide and the "full frame" look is excellent.

It's only a disadvantage where you need distance, and where you need distance you can use primes like a 300 or 400.

So why am I staying with both? Simple. my 300 2.8 IS and 400 2.8 IS are excellent, on all cameras they've come across. So why would I spend more money (the Nikon glass is pricier) to get lenses that match lenses I'm already happy with. And honestly, the crop factor does help with those distances. 10mp on a 1.3x would be like 15mp full frame.

But with the zooms? No contest. After now having played with a 14-24 and 24-70 in addition to a 70-200, I can honestly say the worst of the bunch is the 70-200 VR, and it still trounces the 70-200 IS. Where it doesn't do well? Vignetting. It's heavy. But not a big deal to me. Also, VR, compared to IS, really doesn't do as well. Maybe I'm just used to the way IS works, but for me, IS is better. I rarely use it though. Panning, weddings, that's about it.

The 24-70, Nikons is just sharper. 14-24 vs a 16-35 is a laughable comparison. Even on the other forums, people are getting adapters to fit a 14-24 onto a Canon. I've yet to hear of anyone trying to fit a 16-35 on anything else. I sure wouldn't.

While the issues with the mk3 float around, I've been lucky, in that both my copies are pretty good. I will say they are "different". One of them likes primes, the other zooms. I have tried countless times to fight this and believe it to be psychosomatic, but no matter what, I end up with one camera on my primes, the other on my zooms. I totally expect Canon to come out with some amazing mk4 and bounce back from the bad PR.

Adopting dual systems, and why: Simple, I've got a lot of lenses that I really don't use, and can sell off. I actually already sold off 2 40D's, and other things. By consolidating from a large collection of Canon lenses and cameras, I've gotten enough to carefully select a set of Nikon glass and cameras. They're not interchangeable, but each will have its own specific uses.

Again, everything I'm saying is subjective. I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything. I'm simply stating my take on the equipment. You can all take it for what it's worth.

Max



Oct 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Yamil R. Sued
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p.3 #9 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Yes, I said HOMEY!!!
As in Homeboy!!

And I have seen the Cheerleader shots Max has done too, you should see my Mizzou Golden Girl Collection




Oct 25, 2008 at 01:27 PM
jkurkjia
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p.3 #10 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Yamil R. Sued wrote:
Yes, I said HOMEY!!!
As in Homeboy!!


Well, after the UPS truck driver stories I couldn't be sure.

Joe



Oct 25, 2008 at 04:43 PM
G Ric
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p.3 #11 · Preseason NBA with the D3


kudos Max! great read here... keep em coming


Oct 26, 2008 at 07:14 AM
Yamil R. Sued
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p.3 #12 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Well, I was a BOOOOOORING Game! I left with 10 Minutes to go on the 4th Quarter!!

I used Max's 200-400 on one of my D300's

I know it's noisy, but this was with my other D300 with the 70-200


One is a sequence of this Oregon Touchdown!!





Oct 26, 2008 at 12:14 PM
jkurkjia
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p.3 #13 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Yamil R. Sued wrote:
I used Max's 200-400 on one of my D300's
I know it's noisy, but this was with my other D300 with the 70-200


Yamil, the shot doesn't look too noisy to me (BTW, nice action shot). Do you recall what ISO setting was used to take the picture? Also, for some reason I don't see any cheerleaders in the background ... isn't there anything you can do to improve the composition and get some pretty young things in the picture?

I watched part of the game on TV and trust me, the last thing I want to see is an action (or lack of it) shot of "guys" playing football ... yeah, "playing", that's the right word ... the game sucked.

The 200-400 (and the 500mm VR2) was a lens I considered to go along with the D300; strictly in your opinion, how did that system "track" moving targets; I'm not interested in how quickly you acquired the target, just how well it tracked, say relative to Canon's 300mm f/2.8 (which I know you have used) and either a 1DmkIII or 1DmkIIN, thanks.

Joe



Oct 28, 2008 at 09:32 AM
msauk
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p.3 #14 · Preseason NBA with the D3


The exif in the images shows this Joe:

# Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 10/5000 second = 1/500 second = 0.002 second
# Lens F-Number/F-Stop = 40/10 = F4
# Exposure Program = manual control (1)
# ISO Speed Ratings = 3200



Oct 28, 2008 at 09:36 AM
Yamil R. Sued
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p.3 #15 · Preseason NBA with the D3


msauk wrote:
The exif in the images shows this Joe:

# Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 10/5000 second = 1/500 second = 0.002 second
# Lens F-Number/F-Stop = 40/10 = F4
# Exposure Program = manual control (1)
# ISO Speed Ratings = 3200


What he said!!

I shot the whole game at ISO 3200, 1/500th @ f4 WB was 4760K

Max is the master of the Color Balance!! This guy rocks!! He's a walking Color Meter!!





Oct 28, 2008 at 09:58 AM
Yamil R. Sued
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p.3 #16 · Preseason NBA with the D3


jkurkjia wrote:
Y
The 200-400 (and the 500mm VR2) was a lens I considered to go along with the D300; strictly in your opinion, how did that system "track" moving targets; I'm not interested in how quickly you acquired the target, just how well it tracked, say relative to Canon's 300mm f/2.8 (which I know you have used) and either a 1DmkIII or 1DmkIIN, thanks.

Joe


The 200-400 is an awesome lens!! I have used it before, back in 2005 I shot a Mizzou game with it with a D2H!! This particular one the Max owns is very sharp!! It tracks very well!! Like Max has mentioned, with the D3 in particular, the first shot might not acquire as fast as the 1DMKIII, but.... Once it acquires, it rolls and it rarely lets go!! This Combo of the D300 and the 200-400 is great for Football!! As you well know I have shot extensively with the 1DMKIII and the 1DMKIIn with a good selection of Canon "L" Glass!! This beats both the Canons in focus Tracking!! Some say the 1DMKIII has better IQ than the D3, that might be the case!! But.... What good is great IQ if it isn't in focus I rather have a little less IQ and have it Sharp!!



Oct 28, 2008 at 10:19 AM
mtnfreak
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p.3 #17 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Max,

Excellent work! After a couple more games with the D3, I'm sure you will switch completely to Nikon.

For NBA, I use two D3s, 70-200, 24-70, 14-24 and 300 2.8 VR. On occasion, I bring the 400 2.8 VR and shoot from cheap seats.

Our season starts tomorrow and looking at your NBA photos makes me even more excited for regular season to get under way.

Thanks for posting.





Oct 28, 2008 at 12:07 PM
PShizzy
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p.3 #18 · Preseason NBA with the D3


Al,

The Suns start tomorrow night on the road, but Thursday, they host the Hornets. I also have access to a few more goodies, so I will have pretty much the kit you describe. BTW, good luck with your season. I see your work on SS a lot. Very cool.

The 400 is a great lens and full frame is perfect for basketball, but the weight makes it difficult, at least for me, to react as fast as with the 300 to anything I see. The 200-400 would then seem to make more sense, but at f/4, the viewfinder gets DARK. Also, the zoom ring is a little tough (which I've gotten info from others that this is how it is), which sucks because I had hoped to handhold and zoom in and out, much like the 70-200.

I'll be using 2 D3's, a 300 2.8 and 70-200 for the most part, and a 24-70 and 14-24 for pregame and candids.

Yamil hit it on the head. I've had a good chance to shoot under a variety of conditions, from HS football (at 10K ISO), to a daylight soccer game, to preseason NBA, to NCAA football. In my unscientific opinion, the 1D III really gets out of the gate faster, blasting off that first shot with unparalleled speed. But after that, a sequence can become very hit or miss. And people have told me that my 1D III's are better than theirs, which is scary. The D3 can be a little slow to focus (relative to the 1D III), but once it locks it, it's really sticky. It tries it's best to track a subject, and rarely if ever gives me the WTF shot.

The WTF shot is one where for a sequence, the 1D III will focus within a relative distance range, relating to the subject. Some may be a touch off, some on point, some off, some on. But then, every few shots, you get one, that looks like it's focused on the subject, but only because everything else is so out of focus, that the main subject sorta has the focus by default. It's annoying. To me, this is most common with my 70-200 2.8.

In general, I can say that the primes, especially the 300 and 400 are on par. But the zooms are a different matter. And the tracking ability trumps the first shot speed.

IQ wise? I think in daytime, the Canon has some amazing quality in its file. But I shoot 95% plus of my images at ISO 2000 and up. 800 to me is basically daylight. At those ISO's, I'd say the image quality is about the same, with the Canon being a little noisier because its NR is chroma only, and it tops out at 3200 native. The Nikon tops out at 6400 native, with extended mode allowing third stops to 12800 before making the jump to 25600, which is almost a gimmick ISO.

Regardless of what happens, I think I'm going to stay with dual systems, by consolidating my lower end gear and selling that off, and sticking to best of breed equipment. I still plan on receiving a viking funeral with my 300 2.8 IS (which is still my favorite lens. The 300 2.8 VR is also excellent, but didn't shake my faith in the Canon prime).

Max



Oct 28, 2008 at 10:05 PM
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