jaapv wrote:
I can quite see a number of professionals selling their mother-in-law to get their hands on something like that.
But would they? Whats so wrong with a Phase one back with a mamiya 645 AFD?
I dont know, the more I read about it the more I'm confused about which segment this camera is aimed at. Its too expensive for a DSLR, and the AF, fps (?), high ISO (?) just dont compare, although we dont have any info on the latter 2 as of yet. Professionals in my experience are very specific about their equipment and it takes more than some intangible Leica magic to convince them.
As for MF users, still too expensive, unless you're planning to rent one for a couple of days, in which case Leica is competing with the likes of Hasselblad and good luck with that. Still early to tell but it would be a shame if it turns out to be just another specialty product for super-reach enthusiasts... We'll see, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, I'd love to see Leica back in the game
Also note that they are still going with CCD, unlike the 5D, 1D3, 1Ds3, 5D2, D3 and D700. Couple the absence of CMOS with a maximum aperture of f2.5, and we are not talking about a camera suitable for use in low light, which is a shame because the larger sensor area would have been a great advantage in low light.
Spyro P. wrote:
But would they? Whats so wrong with a Phase one back with a mamiya 645 AFD?
Size and responsiveness.This is a reportage camera with MF image quality. A whole new breed. Canon tried to approach it upscaling from the 135 format. Now we see the idea done right. It will take other companies years to catch up, especially in the optics department (and they have the patented special Kodak sensor and Fujitsu chip too...) There is talk that the price for the body may come down to 15.000 Euro. Maybe there will be some used stuff on the market in a few years time. Hmmm....what bribe would my bank manager take?
As I said: National Geographic, Time-Life, top wildlife photographers, you name it.
> Why did Leica go with the S-System at this point, instead of the R-System? They didn’t want to launch a me-too product. If the full frame R10 came out now, everyone would compare it to the FF Canons and Nikons. Does it shoot as fast? Does it have low noise at 6400 ISO? Does it slice bread? Etc. Instead, the S2 creates a new, unique flagship product for Leica.
By the way, I think Farkas' blog could do with a Google translation, although Google doesn't seem to offer translation from panting infatuese into basic English.
So here goes: "Why did Leica go with the S-System at this point, instead of the R-System?" = R system investors have every right to be angry at the glacial pace of DMR development and the absence of full frame digital for their lenses.
"They didn’t want to launch a me-too product." = they don't have the techonology to compete with CaNikon either in AF or in sensors, so they must try to invent a new class of camera in the hope that those manufacturers will leave them alone in their corner where comparison is futile.
"If the full frame R10 came out now, everyone would compare it to the FF Canons and Nikons. Does it shoot as fast? Does it have low noise at 6400 ISO? Does it slice bread? Etc." = since Leica can't compete in these areas that are clearly important to a large number of photographers, these photographers must be childish artless fools who want their cameras to do unreasonable things and are only interested in bragging about specs.
"Instead, the S2 creates a new, unique flagship product for Leica." = by inventing a format of its own, people can go on saying that no other camera competes until 2016 when the S3 will once again be the best and only camera in the class.
Seriously, the way to deal with the problems of the R system isn't to let it lie fallow for another year. Farkas' blog is a prime example of the cringing apologism which enables Leica to continue squeezing every last drop of other people's hard-earned cash out of its deservedly famous brand without actually solving the problems of producing competitive products. Let's hope the S2 changes all that. It will need to be affordable, capable in low light and autofocus, and offer image quality that no cheaper camera can. I look forward to it with a certain jaded skepticism.
jaapv wrote:
It is amazing isn't it? A MF camera in the size and resposiveness of a D700 or 5D. the S2 is not, for sure. Waaay bigger and prob. heavier.than 5D or d700 And if yo compare the shooting speed, AF response, and most important the lens system. A MF lineup can't compete with 35mm. in terms of variety, size, cost and speed of lenses, Where are the 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 70-200/2.8 or the superfast IS teles (400/2.8 ) ? .(need to be 500/2.8 in a S2 ). Usually I agree with your posts Jaapv, but here you must kidding ....
artur5 wrote:
the S2 is not, for sure. Waaay bigger and prob. heavier.than 5D or d700
This is by a guy who has seen the camera at its introduction...
The camera is really quite compact. If you are thinking about the all-in-one Mamiya ZD, think again. It is actually smaller than a Nikon D3 or a Canon 1 series, let alone the ZD or any medium format system to date. In fact, it is about the size of a D700, which is truly remarkable engineering when you consider that the S2 has a 30x45mm sensor, 56% larger than the D700.
The problem is, of course, that it is nowhere near as responsive compared to any 35mm DSLR at only 1.5FPS. This might be slightly better then the 1FPS of most MF digitals but the professional fashion photographer who shoots the 1Ds series alongside their Hasselblad does that due to the greater responsiveness and AF ability of the 35. This Leica does not do that so, unfortunately, will not do well for those folks. They will still use the Canons, Nikons or whatever for the faster AF and greater Frame rate. This is going to be an issue for Leica in that they have this smallish MF camera in a body that looks like it should be as responsive as a FF 35 but does not deliver.
jaapv wrote:
It is amazing isn't it? A MF camera in the size and resposiveness of a D700 or 5D.
I can quite see a number of professionals selling their mother-in-law to get their hands on something like that. And Leica claims image quality as yet unheard of. Even Leica-sceptics will allow that such a claim is to be taken seriously. A mass order from National Geographic maybe? They downside of course is that it is not for the aspiring amateur...
If anyone's interested, I started a Flickr group for the Leica S, which I hope will build in time as people start using the camera and post samples, and more news is released: http://flickr.com/groups/920282@N22/
Spyro P. wrote:
But would they? Whats so wrong with a Phase one back with a mamiya 645 AFD?
I dont know, the more I read about it the more I'm confused about which segment this camera is aimed at. Its too expensive for a DSLR, and the AF, fps (?), high ISO (?) just dont compare, although we dont have any info on the latter 2 as of yet. Professionals in my experience are very specific about their equipment and it takes more than some intangible Leica magic to convince them.
As for MF users, still too expensive, unless you're planning to rent one for a couple of days, in which case Leica is competing with the likes of Hasselblad and good luck with that. Still early to tell but it would be a shame if it turns out to be just another specialty product for super-reach enthusiasts... We'll see, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, I'd love to see Leica back in the game ...Show more →
jaapv wrote:
Size and responsiveness.This is a reportage camera with MF image quality. A whole new breed. Canon tried to approach it upscaling from the 135 format. Now we see the idea done right. It will take other companies years to catch up, especially in the optics department (and they have the patented special Kodak sensor and Fujitsu chip too...) There is talk that the price for the body may come down to 15.000 Euro. Maybe there will be some used stuff on the market in a few years time. Hmmm....what bribe would my bank manager take?
As I said: National Geographic, Time-Life, top wildlife photographers, you name it. ...Show more →
Again, 1.5FPS and single point AF is not going to set the world on fire with its incredible responsiveness.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Again, 1.5FPS and single point AF is not going to set the world on fire with its incredible responsiveness.
this single af point is the biggest issue i have with so much mf gear...this is a legacy from the film days that most of the makers do not seem to want to address.....
bka20d wrote:
this single af point is the biggest issue i have with so much mf gear...this is a legacy from the film days that most of the makers do not seem to want to address.....
It makes some sense though. Consider who really uses MF. Landscape shooters don't need high frame rates. Studio photographers don't need it either and they have to wait for flash to recycle anyway.
Fast frame rates are most useful for sports or photojournalism, and those photographers value portability and speed over IQ.
As for the AF, well many medium format users like to focus manually (me too) and it's a lot easier with our large viewfinders. Still, a really fast multipoint system could have its uses!
DOF is more shallow on MF. One runs into the limitations of AF rather quickly. One of the things to do is to position the plane of focus exactly where it must be. That requires thinking, not automation.
I agree with both of you guys, jaapv and foto-z. The issue is then what does the S2 bring to the MF party? It will be as slow as the traditional MF systems, will not have the benefits of the larger, traditional MF systems such as a big viewfinder and, according to foto-z, aimed at landscape shooters who do not need high Frame rates. There are already plenty of choices out there which do this. It's not fast enough for the fashion shooter. It seems to be a camera which will fail to satisfy the traditional MF market or the high end 35 DSLR market. A hybrid and compromise which does not excel at any one thing which is already in the market. I hate to say it, but I think Leica is going to have a difficult time selling this thing.
Surpisingly ( or rather not, imo), interest amongst the targeted customer base seems to be high- the future can only tell. Let's wait until these things do get to the market. It is not as if Leica needs to sell hundreds of thousands. Nobody knows the projected sales figures except Leica themselves, but I would be highly surprised if Leica even managed to build more than 2500 over 2009. Of the DMR they only built 5000, and that was double the projected figure, reason it sold out. At the moment there are only 15 S2s..
jaapv wrote:
DOF is more shallow on MF. One runs into the limitations of AF rather quickly. One of the things to do is to position the plane of focus exactly where it must be. That requires thinking, not automation.
I was disappointed that there is no mention of live view in S2. I first thought live view was just a gimmick. But as I have been using 1Ds3 for a bit, I find that when it's on a tripod and I want critical focus, live view with 10x mag makes focusing so much easier. When I bought my 1Ds3, I bought an Angle Finder C as a reflex. I returned it because live view made it redundant for me. (I know there are still uses for an angle finder even with live view, but those would be rare for me.)
There is another aspect which s overlooked; the S2 is a technology platform which will feed the development of the R10,which I predict will be a 24 Mp compact DSLR,which will also take old R lenses with focus confirmation, and it will be the driving force for the M9 as well. I predict an 18 Mp 1.3 crop sensor there, but maybe with IR filtering. I'm sure those both will be based on the same sensor technology as the S2 (which I suspect is a refinement of the M8 sensor with shifted microlenses), chip and engine.
