chez wrote:
Yeh, but who is talking real world difference. Here we are discussing perceived differences as the more expensive camera must have better AF.
ok then percieved difference: none as they have the identical AF.
with the grip the D700 will producve under the same situations a whopping 8fps using a EN-EL4a battery. this is why it is my BU camera. it serves many roles. w/o the grip it is more compact and lighter. it can be used w/grip with various battery configs as needed. it can be look at as a somewhat more versatil casmera body then the D3.
Herb, that's an important subject to me, and I don't quite understand your comment. Do you mean to say that:
1. A D3 should track fast-moving subjects (e.g. airplanes) better than a D300/D700, despite having the same AF engine, and regardless of whether AA's or EN-EL4a batteries are used in the MB-D10 grip.
2. A D3 should track fast-moving subjects (e.g. airplanes) better than a D300/D700, despite having the same AF engine, but only with AA's in the grip... with an EN-EL4a in the grip it's pretty much the same.
HerbChong wrote:
no AF speed difference, significant AF tracking ability difference in AF-C mode. speed is just size of AF motor for AF-D and battery power for AF-S.
I've worked with both and found no appreciable or notable difference. However coming from a D300 I did notice with the same lenses (a 24-70 f2.8 and 50mm f1.4D) the D700 "snapped" into focus where the D300 "glided" into focus. That's the way I'd describe it. The D3 was exactly the same way.
then you don't do anything requiring difficult AF tracking. i just picked up my D300 with EN-EL4a for a weekend's shooting of wildlife and the difference between it and the D3 i shoot with every day in AF-C mode with identical settings is huge. if it wasn't for the crop factor magnification, i would get rid of the D300 purely for AF performance reasons. it's simply not in the leage of the D3. it's huge to me because i push the D3 to its limits every day, 6 days a week since the day it came out. the D300 sits on the shelf when AF tracking performance is critically important. it's not even worth having along for backup for my shooting because only the D3 can do the job. none of the D2 bodies can either.
none of your example subjects are very demanding. small birds in flight are more demanding because they don't move as predictably and are much more maneuverable. that's when the D300 and D3 show some difference in AF tracking speed. however, there are harder subjects that push the limits where a good day with my D3 is 10% or so in focus and the D300 barely manages 5% under ideal conditions. there is a small speed difference in AF and much larger difference in tracking speed at the edge. i prove it to myself every day i shoot and that most days of the week most weeks of the year. yes, i am at the latest firmware on both bodies and all AF-related settings are identical.
Herb....
Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Herb, that's an important subject to me, and I don't quite understand your comment. Do you mean to say that:
1. A D3 should track fast-moving subjects (e.g. airplanes) better than a D300/D700, despite having the same AF engine, and regardless of whether AA's or EN-EL4a batteries are used in the MB-D10 grip.
2. A D3 should track fast-moving subjects (e.g. airplanes) better than a D300/D700, despite having the same AF engine, but only with AA's in the grip... with an EN-EL4a in the grip it's pretty much the same.
Is that what you are shooting that you only get 10% keepers on the D3? Small birds in flight. I've seen you mention that you are really pushing the autofocus limits of the D3 and I couldn't imagine what you could be shooting to get such a low keeper rate. But I guess small birds flying unpredictably could do it. I guess the only thing that may be worse would be small bats in flight at night.
Nah... propeller-driven airplanes doing aerobatics are the hardest for me. Let's see...
There's an airplane flying past you at 200mph, barely a few hundred feet away. It's not just unpredictable, it's doing world-class aerobatics like someone's actually shooting at it, and some of these buggers can roll 400+ degrees per second (over one full turn!) at full deflection. And that's just the subject...
You, the shooter, create another set of complications. You're rotating at the waist to track it and pan the camera, with a peak angular velocity of up to 45-50 degrees per second as the plane passes right in front of you. You're using a long zoom, anywhere from 300mm to 800mm, handheld, for several hours at a time. And you've got the shutter speed down at 1/80 or 1/100 to get really good prop blur (ideally, a full round disc) for the greatest in realism.
Better shooters get better keeper rates. For shots like these, mine is well under 1%...
HerbChong wrote:
small birds in flight are more demanding because they don't move as predictably and are much more maneuverable. that's when the D300 and D3 show some difference in AF tracking speed. however, there are harder subjects that push the limits where a good day with my D3 is 10% or so in focus and the D300 barely manages 5% under ideal conditions. [...] yes, i am at the latest firmware on both bodies and all AF-related settings are identical.
Hey, Herb, what are those "harder subjects" you're talking about? I love to shoot things that move (obviously), and I'd love to learn a little more about what you do. And the two really important questions...
1. For my kind of shooting (as mentioned in the previous post, and also wildlife in its natural habitat), do you think the D3 would be worth the difference in cost? I'd have to sell both D300's and some other stuff, but with some stretching and saving I could do it. And if it really has a chance to double my keeper rate, wow.
2. Can we talk about your AF settings? Again, I could use the learning opportunity. I'll go through my camera's settings tomorrow and post the relevant stuff, but I'd sure like to see how you do it 'cause your keeper rate puts mine to shame.
HerbChong wrote:
then you don't do anything requiring difficult AF tracking. i just picked up my D300 with EN-EL4a for a weekend's shooting of wildlife and the difference between it and the D3 i shoot with every day in AF-C mode with identical settings is huge. if it wasn't for the crop factor magnification, i would get rid of the D300 purely for AF performance reasons. it's simply not in the leage of the D3. it's huge to me because i push the D3 to its limits every day, 6 days a week since the day it came out. the D300 sits on the shelf when AF tracking performance is critically important. it's not even worth having along for backup for my shooting because only the D3 can do the job. none of the D2 bodies can either.
HerbChong wrote:
then you don't do anything requiring difficult AF tracking. i just picked up my D300 with EN-EL4a for a weekend's shooting of wildlife and the difference between it and the D3 i shoot with every day in AF-C mode with identical settings is huge. if it wasn't for the crop factor magnification, i would get rid of the D300 purely for AF performance reasons. it's simply not in the leage of the D3. it's huge to me because i push the D3 to its limits every day, 6 days a week since the day it came out. the D300 sits on the shelf when AF tracking performance is critically important. it's not even worth having along for backup for my shooting because only the D3 can do the job. none of the D2 bodies can either.
Herb - I hear ya. I have my D300 out most of the time for wildlife due to the crop factor (or pixel density or whatever is people want to call it). However, when I need to have some serious focus tracking, it's the D3 all the way. I'm always swapping cameras and asking myself - do I need length this time or speed? I wish I could afford two 500mm lenses and just keep one on each body.
I'm heading to Yellowstone in a couple weeks, and for elk, deer, bison, ect, I'll be using the D300. When it comes to shooting a coyote as he runs along or worse - an antelope chasing around a mate, that D3 is going to be the go to cam.
sjms wrote:
now try it with a D700 instead of a D300. oh there is a big difference between the 300 and the 700
I'm beginning to question if you two guys have lemon D300's. I am shooting the D700 and D300 simultaneously all weekend for sports and there's nothing between them... nothing. If anything, I think the D300 has an advantage in that with the same lens the subject is bigger and sometimes easier to track. I don't get it. What mode are you comparing the two in back-to-back, and what batteries / power source (grip?) are you using?
I noticed a large improvement in acquisition speed with my D300 when I turned off focus delay for tracking and switched from 3D tracking to 9 point. Perhaps that could explain some of the discrepancy.
last time i was asked here and gave examples, all i got were snarky comments of no-one in their right mind uses a camera that way. birds in flight are easy at about 90% keeper rate. based on last time's experience, i'm not going to bother explaining or posting other than i shoot that way 5 or 6 days a week every week of the year since i got my D3 anywhere from 50 to 400 pictures a day.
Herb....
gman1339 wrote:
Herb,
Is that what you are shooting that you only get 10% keepers on the D3? Small birds in flight. I've seen you mention that you are really pushing the autofocus limits of the D3 and I couldn't imagine what you could be shooting to get such a low keeper rate. But I guess small birds flying unpredictably could do it. I guess the only thing that may be worse would be small bats in flight at night.
HerbChong wrote:
last time i was asked here and gave examples, all i got were snarky comments of no-one in their right mind uses a camera that way.
Herb, I'm pretty sure Gary was agreeing with you, not picking on you. And I sure wasn't... far from "snarky comments", I posted shots of what I do that drives my AF nuts. All I'm trying to do is learn how to squeeze every last drop of performance out of the AF, tracking especially.
Edited by Rodolfo Paiz on Sep 06, 2008 at 12:32 PM GMT
based on last time's experience explaining this a few months ago, i'm not going to explain or show examples of what i shoot.
i use AF-C mode with either 51-pt 3D or just 51-pt, mostly 3D mode because my subjects usually have distinct color patterns. my subjects move too erratically to use anything else and keeping them in the frame at all is too hard. i use focus tracking with locking on set to off because my subjects move too fast and have too much interference to have the camera pause and lock onto the wrong thing. i use AF-C with focus lock because if the subject i care about is the slightest bit blurry, the image is useless. all of my kind of shooting like this is done with the 50/1.4 AF-D wide open with subjects and me moving with respect to each other but about 3ft to 15 ft away. sometimes they are coming toward me and sometimes they are moving away from me. you know the DOF of the lens at f1.4 is only about an inch at 6ft. i lock the focus sensor to the center one for focus acquisition and let the camera shift focus sensors to maintain focus once it is acquired. because of what i shoot, the AF-ON button is useless for me and i have to use the shutter button.
i have tried lots of other cameras with all kinds of settings and nothing comes close to the D3. your best bet is to rent one and set it up identically to your D300/D700 and shoot hard stuff with it. i've caught moving subjects faster than i can tell whether they are in the viewfinder at all until i look later, with the subject properly focused on what i care about.
i saw a big jump in AF tracking speed with the latest D3 firmware with about the same keeper rate. shooting small birds in flight against clean backgrounds is over 90%. i feel the D3/D300 are worse than the D2 bodies against cluttered backgrounds like tracking a small bird against a forest. they tend to lock onto the background and stay locked onto it even with lock-on time set to short so that when i recenter the bird in the viewfinder, the camera stays on the background.
when i do my bird shooting, it's mostly with a 600/4 and 1.7X. tracking birds in flight at close range with it is a entirely different skill yet i don't find the camera the limit, it's my ability to move the system to follow it's movement. for rapid larger birds in flight, i tend to use the 300/4 with 1.4 extender because i don't need to be on a tripod and have more freedom of movement.
i use my D3 day in and day out and the times i fall back to the D300 for anything where the crop factor matters more, i really feel the loss in AF performance.
Herb...
Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Hey, Herb, what are those "harder subjects" you're talking about? I love to shoot things that move (obviously), and I'd love to learn a little more about what you do. And the two really important questions...
1. For my kind of shooting (as mentioned in the previous post, and also wildlife in its natural habitat), do you think the D3 would be worth the difference in cost? I'd have to sell both D300's and some other stuff, but with some stretching and saving I could do it. And if it really has a chance to double my keeper rate, wow.
2. Can we talk about your AF settings? Again, I could use the learning opportunity. I'll go through my camera's settings tomorrow and post the relevant stuff, but I'd sure like to see how you do it 'cause your keeper rate puts mine to shame. ...Show more →
1. One of the Nikon pros at ISAP suggested that using the 21-point AF, or even the 9-point, might improve AF speed simply by giving the camera less computation to perform. Have you tried this, and if so, have you noticed any AF speed improvement from it?
2. Note the emphasized phrases in this quote... I'm a little confused by that. Can you please explain the difference between them?
HerbChong wrote:
i use focus tracking with locking on set to off because my subjects move too fast and have too much interference to have the camera pause and lock onto the wrong thing. i use AF-C with focus lock because if the subject i care about is the slightest bit blurry, the image is useless.
I guess the only thing that may be worse would be small bats in flight at night.