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Archive 2008 · Dance Pose Copyright

  
 
jvarszegi
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p.4 #1 · Dance Pose Copyright


donrisi wrote:
I hate to say this, but choreography can indeed be copyrighted. A "dance pose" is one moment in a choreographed dance, and can, therefore, be copyrighted.

I've worked with numerous dancers and dance companies over the last 40 years in numerous capacities, and I've seen it.

From page 3 of the document found on the US Copyright website (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf):

"Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following
...Show more

... except it's not fixed in a medium.




Aug 28, 2008 at 12:16 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #2 · Dance Pose Copyright


Matt Cope wrote:
As the original poster's avatar does not say which country they live (and work) in. It is impossible to advise them about the legal situation. All the above advice and comment is meaningless with that location information.


There's so much misinformation floating around on this thread that it doesn't even matter what country the OP is from!



Aug 28, 2008 at 01:16 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #3 · Dance Pose Copyright


lordarka wrote:


The Copyright Office is not the same as the Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). USPTO is Dept. of Commerce, Copyright Office is Library of Congress. Different set of rules and statutes. The reason the USPTO has denied granting patents on ancient practice of yoga is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that yoga is an abstract idea which has no provable utility and lacks predictable results from its use. It is also a mere modification of human movement, and human movement is not patentable.

The whole "public domain" issue is secondary, as the main reason to secure a patent is precisely to disclose it into the public domain so that you can protect others from selling or using it. That is why patent and trademark documents are publically available. They are inherently in the public domain once the patent issues.

Edited on Aug 28, 2008 at 01:31 PM



Aug 28, 2008 at 01:29 PM
Nathan Hobbs
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p.4 #4 · Dance Pose Copyright


Could you not claim that the pose the girl was striking was the child's own interpretation of what her teacher taught her? and therefor a unique and original work. At what point does the girl become independent in thought? when she leaves the studio? when she no longer trains with the teacher?, Never?

Perhaps I will copyright the yawn and sue anyone that yawns.



Aug 28, 2008 at 01:48 PM
Arka
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p.4 #5 · Dance Pose Copyright




The Copyright Office is not the same as the Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). USPTO is Dept. of Commerce, Copyright Office is Library of Congress. Different set of rules and statutes. The reason the USPTO has denied granting patents on ancient practice of yoga is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that yoga is an abstract idea which has no provable utility and lacks predictable results from its use. It is also a mere modification of human movement, and human movement is not patentable.


Fair point. I did not notice it was a USPTO denial, probably because I think it unimaginable that anyone would be foolish enough to even argue that Yoga asanas are covered by either Patent or Trademark law. Not only are the asanas ineligible subject matter (abstract ideas unpatentable, 35 U.S.C. § 101), but the asanas themselves are not new (not novel, 35 U.S.C. § 102). The more common form of IP protection sought for Yoga is copyright, as was done in Open Source Yoga Unity v. Choudhury.

The whole "public domain" issue is secondary, as the main reason to secure a patent is precisely to disclose it into the public domain so that you can protect others from selling or using it. That is why patent and trademark documents are publically available. They are inherently in the public domain once the patent issues.

But the disclosure is subject to a patentee's power to exclude others from using or selling the invention. Given the power of the patent monopoly, I think it a highly qualified definition of "public domain." Public disclosure is not the same as "public domain."

Arka C.



Aug 28, 2008 at 02:01 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #6 · Dance Pose Copyright


lordarka wrote:
Fair point. I did not notice it was a USPTO denial, probably because I think it unimaginable that anyone would be foolish enough to even argue that Yoga asanas are covered by either Patent or Trademark law.



Well, yes, but you would be surprised what people try to patent.



But the disclosure is subject to a patentee's power to exclude others from using or selling the invention. Given the power of the patent monopoly, I think it a highly qualified definition of "public domain." Public disclosure is not the same as "public domain."

Arka C.


Yes, I did not mean to confuse the issue of public domain with the issue of public disclosure, and I did not make myself clear there. I was construing public domain to mean publically accessible, when actually, I believe it means owned by the public and not a single entity. Patents are owned by a single entity.

Anyway, my point was that yoga moves being in the "public domain" is a fairly minor reason they are not patentable, as there are many instances where inventions previously in the public domain are recaptured into patents if it can be shown the inventions serve some new and non-obvious purpose not originally realized. Since the determination of obviousness is very subjective and done by humans at the Patent Office, sometimes mistakes are made! I believe there is an organization called the Public Patent Foundation which lobbies for and funds the expensive process of re-examining previously granted patents which may have at one time existed in the public domain.

Edited on Aug 28, 2008 at 03:28 PM



Aug 28, 2008 at 03:24 PM
Arka
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p.4 #7 · Dance Pose Copyright


mostlyprudent wrote:
You're getting close Arka, but still not quite getting it. Although the issues have changed as noted in my last post, Fixation is still critical to this question.


I understand what you are saying about the importance of fixation. It seems to me, however, that the federal courts haven't really spoken clearly to this issue as it pertains to photography. In Horgan v. MacMillan,, for example, the "fixation" of Ballanchine's choreography consisted of a video production of the dance, with costumes and lighting. The court left the scope of expression, as fixed in the video, to be resolved on remand... apparently the matters were never sorted out. Further, few if any courts have examined the scope of copyright in a notation fixation, rather than a video fixation.

That said, most Bharatnatyam teachers fix their choreographies via notation of the "bols" governing a dancer's steps, and sometimes through videotaping. That, to me, resolves much of the issue surrounding fixation.

Either way, I think we agree on the result; a single pose in a complex dance choreography is unlikely to be protected by copyright. While I appreciate your emphasis on the importance of fixation as a threshold, there are multiple avenues by which a choreographer may (and usually do) fix their work. I'm not saying that there aren't colorable arguments against fixation, but these facts hardly require a deep investigation of those theories.


One last comment and then I will leave this discussion. When copyright law first came into being, great effort and/or expense were required to "fix" a work. Why would anyone go to the work of writing, by hand, a novel if someone else could reproduce it and sell it as their own. So if you wanted protection of your song, oration, etc. you not only had to create/perform it, but record it. We have eliminated the work required to fix a work, and are left only with the creative process.


It seems to me that architectural changes wrought by advancing technology have made a number of activities easier, including copyright infringement.

The prevailing idea now is that copyright law attempts to balance protection/incentive for the author with the need for freedom of expression in the public domain (although courts have been running wild on the protection of authors as of late).

I tend to agree that the pendulum is swinging too far in favor of protecting right holders, rather than creating incentives for creativity or protecting free expression.

Giving someone the copyright on a dance pose would be far too restrictive to those who want to express themselves through dance. Courts have long held that food recipes are not copyrightable, for example.

That sounds like an idea/expression problem. Of course, you know the law in the area, and I think we are in agreement on how this particular issue resolves.

Arka C.



Aug 28, 2008 at 06:39 PM
SJMD
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p.4 #8 · Dance Pose Copyright


njjuliano wrote:
To add. Isnt there a photographer in Hawaii that did exactly this, copyright a pose? And even more, it was a popular pose of a dance.

quick google:
http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/C259362623/E20071101192150/index.html



just so you will know,
if you read the link
the lawsuit is over a photograph, not just the pose in the photograph

A stain glass copy of the photograph was made ....




Aug 29, 2008 at 01:03 AM
jaclarkaus
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p.4 #9 · Dance Pose Copyright


Don't confuse 'hired' and employed.

Just because you hire someone, it does not transfer copyright. If I hire a photographer to take some shots, by default they retain copyright.

If I employ a photographer, I get the copyright.

While the pose may be copyrighted, the photo isn't - just as if I took a photo of a can of Coke, they wouldn't get the copyright of the shot.



Aug 29, 2008 at 02:08 AM
cordellwillis
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p.4 #10 · Dance Pose Copyright


If simply standing at a moment of capture is part of the routine does the instructor have copyright over that image?

I don't think so.



Aug 29, 2008 at 05:04 AM
DixPix
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p.4 #11 · Dance Pose Copyright


Kaydee,

I find this issue to be a real thought provoker. It seems clear to me that you own the image. (I'm assuming that because if she had hired you specifically to capture the poses that would have been clearer at the outset.) But it troubles me that the lady may have a legitimate concern over publication of the poses. Maybe in the context of the dance-form she really does deserve ownership of the poses.

It would be nice if some agreement could be reached where boths parties could be happy with the outcome. Maybe the suggestion about a credit line or some more assertive statement about ownership accompanying any publication of the photo would provide the protection she needs within the dance community and still make it possible to use the images for your own needs.

I hope you will let us know the eventual resolution.

Dick



Aug 29, 2008 at 10:16 AM
mdude85
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p.4 #12 · Dance Pose Copyright


Why don't you just ask for the woman's copyright documents? This seems like the most direct solution to your issue. All she needs to provide you is the number, or you are within your rights to ask her for all related copyright documents including of course the documentation of the pose itself (drawing, recording, etc). Dance and choreography copyrights typically begin with PAu#########

Edited on Aug 29, 2008 at 11:22 AM



Aug 29, 2008 at 11:20 AM
liamh
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p.4 #13 · Dance Pose Copyright


mdude85 wrote:
Why don't you just ask for the woman's copyright documents?

You don't need documents to own the copyright.



Aug 29, 2008 at 03:06 PM
mdude85
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p.4 #14 · Dance Pose Copyright


liamh wrote:
You don't need documents to own the copyright.


Of course not, I am merely suggesting the OP obtain the proper documentation so as to have clear proof that the woman owns the copyright, instead of wasting hours and hours conjecturing as to whether the copyright is proper or even exists. There's no reason that the woman should deny disclosing this paperwork as it would only serve to strengthen her case. The Copyright Office issues a Certificate of Copyright with every Copyright issued.



Sep 02, 2008 at 09:15 AM
PDBreske
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p.4 #15 · Dance Pose Copyright


I would agree that choreography can be copyrighted, but a pose cannot.

Let's say a work of choreography included someone walking from one part of the stage to another. Would that mean that taking a picture of someone walking would be a violation of copyright? Of course not. The copyrighted material must be taken as a whole and a static picture of someone holding a pose is not "choreography." The photo itself may be copyright protected, but the pose depicted in the photo is not.

If this scenario were legally sound, it would be possible to film a dance routine and then claim each frame is a copyrighted pose. From that time on anyone using any pose depicted in those frames would be required to license each and every combination of leg and arm positions just to get on stage. See how ridiculous this is?



Sep 02, 2008 at 12:37 PM
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