p.8 #1 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
Stu Warner wrote:
Okay, my conclusions:
I've done a lot of online trawling over the weekend. The M8 is certainly VERY nice - no doubt. However, both the 5D and the M8 cameras are using relatively old sensors, and the 5D II will most likely be released in a matter of weeks. Whilst the M8 will retain it's high price because there is simply no competition, the 5D will be seen as obsolete, and improved features will be offered in the next model. Leica more than likely won't have as quick an "upgrade" cycle, so the M8 will still be very expensive, yet the M8 to me is not quite the finished article (sensor, ISO and exp comp on hidden "set" menu) and it will appear even less good value compared to the raw image quality obtainable with the up-and-coming generations of dSLRs. My heart implores me to try the M8, but my head tells me that in a couple of month's time I will be able to get a perfectly good dSLR with improved resolution, improved ISO performance, improved rear LCD, and improved shooting buffer for between one third to one half the price (I guess) of the M8. I also really don't want to give up the fast wide angle lenses and the relative ease of macro/telephoto on the dSLR. But Telyt is right about the spot metering - I probably don't need that with the histogram review.
Just to be clear, I think the M8 was designed to retain M users who wanted to involve digital processing and speed in their workflow. I think Leica had to introduce it at the time they did, and I think they did a good job with the technology available. In fact, if I already had some M lenes, I would no doubt buy an M8. But the fact remains that I don't and I'd be looking at a VERY high entry charge to get into the digital M system. I just can't do it. I should say that for me the whole point of using an interchangable lens camera is to use fast glass. Given my curent finances, and the fact that I would have to sacrifice so many features to embark down the digital Rangefinder route, I just don't think this is the right time for me with my income and current M8 prices. This kind of hurts, because I usually like to buy exaclty what I want the first time around and not waste time and money with a series of expensive upgrades - and shooting a small digital rangefinder is ultimately where I would like to be.
I will continue waiting and continue saving, but it would be a very brave step to dump all of my SLR gear and jump head-first into a super-expensive digital rangefinder system. Can anyone comment about whether the prices of M8s have been coming down over the last two years? If they take a price decrease in the autumn, I may renew my interest, but I sincerely doubt M8s will ever be available for 4,000US in the near future. I could wait on price decreases forever.. but I really don't want to shoot with my curent inadequate camera (a 300D!!! ) for another year At some point, I have to decide.
You can get very good used ones at the 2500 -3000 Euro range, demos in the high 3000-nds.Meister was even selling new for 4000 Euro. If ever Leica replaces the M8 with an M9 we can be fairly sure that it will be more expensive than the M8 - driving used prices up -not down.
You could save some on lenses too - older Leica glass does really well on the M8, and so do Zeiss and CV lenses.
p.8 #2 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
More importantly, the wide angle lenses are not retrofocus. They don't have to be made "longer" to clear the mirror of a (D)SLR.
telyt wrote:
It depends. The M lenses, especially wides, are generally more recent designs so where they have the benefit of new computations they'll be better than R lenses. I wouldn't say far better but that's a subjective valuation. Some of the longer lenses are identical design whether M or R, the 90mm AA and late 90mm Elmarit, for example.
Jul 28, 2008 at 11:24 AM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.8 #3 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
jaapv wrote:
Well, seeing that these images load within the second on a very standard DSL on my basic laptop in all browsers, and all other computers and connections I and others have around, it is a surprise you have this problem, which I cannot explain.
It is quick for you because you already have the image cached. If you try to load the image for the first time you will see the speed that the rest of us see. If you want to know how fast your site is, turn off caching in your browser.
> Caching ahead won't work on a one-page website, which this one is -for speed.
When the main image has loaded, its onLoad parameter should call a recurring function which loads the next images on a hidden layer, or just as a javascript image object. That way the browser can cache-ahead. I made my site do this in 1999. Today it's a lot easier.
Jul 28, 2008 at 03:55 PM
Andi Dietrich Offline [X]
p.8 #4 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
pdmphoto wrote:
More importantly, the wide angle lenses are not retrofocus. They don't have to be made "longer" to clear the mirror of a (D)SLR.
I believe this is no longer true, also I understand that Leica chose the crop to avoid some of the problems with lenses of symetrical designs
p.8 #5 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
jaapv wrote:
Well, seeing that these images load within the second on a very standard DSL on my basic laptop in all browsers, and all other computers and connections I and others have around, it is a surprise you have this problem, which I cannot explain. Caching ahead won't work on a one-page website, which this one is -for speed.
On this note I found the browser is of more importance for speed. Whereas IE 6 is amongst the slowest, Safari makes even a notoriously slow site like Photobucket load very fast.
p.8 #6 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
Brainiac, I just tried it on a newly installed computer, A Pentium 3 with 192 Mb Ram no less , so anything but a speed monster, running XP and IE7 on an elcheapo DSL connection and it is nowhere near as slow as you say, within 2 seconds, so there must be something wrong your end.
p.8 #7 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
I think the DSLR proponents are missing something here.
There is a reason DSLRs are more popular than RFs - they offer greater convenience, AF, reflex viewing, etc. etc. If someone cares about specs, features, price/performance and all the various quantitative features, the DSLR will be the winner.
That is not why people consider RFs. RFs are about a particular way of working which makes the tradeoffs worth it. To use an analogy - a lot of people like to go out armed with a full collection of lenses/range of focal lengths b/c they want to be prepared for whatever they can find. Yet other people do exquisite work with 1 camera and 1 prime lens (eg Bresson). There is no logical argument to be made that says "1 prime lens is better than an array of lenses", yet in practice, sometimes too much choice of focal lengths can be a variable that gets in the way of seeing - while the photographer is busy swapping or selecting lenses, the moment passes. A fixed focal length forces you to see with that angle of view, which actually can make the photographer more receptive when it comes to capturing the decisive moment.
The RF way of working is sort of similar. Yes, there are lots of logical reasons why a DSLR is better than a RF. But some photographers dont need features - such photographers may need a tool which allows them to connect to their subjects better, and this tool could very well be a RF. If so, all the specs/measurements/etc dont matter, because ultimately, photography is about how well you can see and capture a moment. If a RF is better suited for someone's style of working, then it doesnt matter what the technical advantages of a DSLR are - that person will produce better photos with a RF (of course, the subject also has to be within the technical limitations of a RF. Macro, sports, action, wildlife, etc. are all better served with DSLRs).
All this specsmanship is basically irrelevant gearhead talk. And before I am accused of being a RF diehard - I am a DSLR user. But I do appreciate the RF style of working, and were there a digital RF solution for <$2k, I'd get one in a heartbeat. Some of my best street photography has been with a compact camera... I "see" a lot better when I am not encumbered by various bodies, lenses, etc.
p.8 #9 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
I should also add that personally, I will never touch Leica camera gear. IMO, they are no longer in the photography business, but in the business of manufacturing cameras for collectors. The cameras are quite good, but seriously overpriced, even taking into account limited volumes and such.
p.8 #15 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
I haven't read this whole thread (7 pages!) but wonder if this review has been mentioned. It's by a photojournalist who tried the M8 in his work in Iraq; in fact he tried three of them and decided they were unusable for his work.
p.8 #16 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
DIS Ottawa wrote:
I haven't read this whole thread (7 pages!) but wonder if this review has been mentioned. It's by a photojournalist who tried the M8 in his work in Iraq; in fact he tried three of them and decided they were unusable for his work.
p.8 #17 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
telyt wrote:
I bought mine (10x40B) new 31 years ago, have used 'em in the arctic & the tropics and most places in-between and have had no problems.
My first ones which I got ages ago were stolen in Nairobi about ten years ago. I got new ones back then and they serve me well. Leica loaned me the newest type a few weeks ago. Now I wish my current ones will be stolen . They have been spectacularly improved over the last decade.
p.8 #19 · canon DSLR vs Leica M8 for extended traveling
Looks like this thread is about to die.
Olympus just announced a 4/3 camera without optical viewfinder and mirror - could be the answer to a small interchangable lens camera on a budget?
) for another year 
At some point, I have to decide.
