runner301 wrote:
Most photographers don't shoot for free, and most don't ruin the shots of the guests...so I guess you really aren't like most photographers.
No, apparently I'm not an elitist snob who trashes anybody who dares to **GASP** shoot for free to gain experience when there are no second-shooter opportunities present. As I said, the guests had no problem with me "ruining their shots", whatsoever.
Lady, you don't get to talk about being professional. You're the one who can't decide if it's a bad thing to go back on a promise and stab another photographer in the back. You can call me what you want, but at least I'm not a hypocrite. Go lecture someone else. I already have a mommy, and she knows what a promise is.
truthseeker wrote:
No, apparently I'm not an elitist snob who trashes anybody who dares to **GASP** shoot for free to gain experience when there are no second-shooter opportunities present. As I said, the guests had no problem with me "ruining their shots", whatsoever.
No really...good night.
Doing a wedding for free for experience and doing a wedding for free for "multiple other reasons" are 2 different things. So which is it?
And I fail to see how my comments could possibly be construed as elitist. I was simply stating cold hard facts. It is a fact that most photographers don't shoot for free, and that most photographers don't conspire to intentionally destroy the photography of the guests, regardless of whether the guest appear to care or not.
truthseeker wrote:
No, apparently I'm not an elitist snob who trashes anybody who dares to **GASP** shoot for free to gain experience when there are no second-shooter opportunities present. As I said, the guests had no problem with me "ruining their shots", whatsoever.
No really...good night.
How do you know that, did you take a Nielsen poll ?
truthseeker wrote:
Lady, you don't get to talk about being professional. You're the one who can't decide if it's a bad thing to go back on a promise and stab another photographer in the back. You can call me what you want, but at least I'm not a hypocrite. Go lecture someone else. I already have a mommy, and she knows what a promise is.
*yawn*
ancient thread. ancient issue which resolved beautifully, thanks.
your continued poor reactions to this thread speaks volumes. good luck to you.
ruining family's p&s moments is an asshole thing to do. my last wedding the bride said she has an aunt who
wanted to shoot along side and setup shots, etc. I said she can shoot all the candids she wants, but not
to interfere with anything else, since we would be tight on time, and I was shooting alone. Thats all it took.
I would rather my gear stay in the closet than to shoot for free. You spend all that money on gear, and
give it away, just great. I wonder why all these military guys insist on having BBW as brides?
Earlier in this post you mentioned that some of us are missing the point. I have to say at this point you are missing the point of many of the respondents here; on top of that you are disrespecting many with child-like come backs.
I originally typed something long in which I thought would be helpful.......I deleted it because you live and learn that some folks just don't care and/or understand. I believe this is you truthseeker
Just as you will live and learn with the way you are handling all of this and disrespecting the replies thus far.
I don't think you have to point out to any of us about the need to start off slow and do a few budget weddings in order to fine tune some skills and build a portfolio. All of us started somewhere and many of us have a few budget events under our belts, too. Truth be told, your multiple posts about the benefits of this or future plans were a little confusing and - in a few cases - coming off as a little arrogant. If you weren't ready for the possibility that not everyone would agree with your methods for handling a situation that many of us considered to be unprofessional (or to be fair, not the way we would have handled it) than maybe it was unwise to post this in the first place. And making comments like "I promise, I'm not a prick" is the equivalent of saying, "I don't mean to be rude BUT..."
All that's left for me to say at this point is that - after reading about how you handled yourself in that situation and the way you responded to people who may, one day, consider you a peer - these freebie wedding brides and budget wedding brides are definitely getting what they pay for and that's a real shame.
Yeah, you're right. It was unwise to post anything in the first place, and it was unwise to get pissed off after I get slammed for it. None of this would have ever even come up if I was able to pick from a client pool who didn't have a plan to rip you off from the very start. There's the rock of dealing with people with no class, and the hard place of charging more than your skill level is worth. What works for my current low-to-no-budget client base is fighting fire with fire. If it were different people, I wouldn't even have to think about it, but this is my situation. Sorry to make you sort through 2 pages of my crap.
None of this would have ever even come up if I was able to pick from a client pool who didn't have a plan to rip you off from the very start.
But you're making an assumption there. Guests frequently shoot over your shoulder when doing formals... has nothing to do with a predetermined plan to "rip off" the pro. Make the best photos you can... They should be better than anything the guests grab with their P&S or even with their DSLRs... If they're not you have bigger issues to deal with than guests "ripping you off."
PhotosByRDD wrote:
But you're making an assumption there. Guests frequently shoot over your shoulder when doing formals... has nothing to do with a predetermined plan to "rip off" the pro. Make the best photos you can... They should be better than anything the guests grab with their P&S or even with their DSLRs... If they're not you have bigger issues to deal with than guests "ripping you off."
Make a little sense?
The rock and the hard place dictates that I have to shoot for free or cheap. The "free or cheap" group (in this area, anyway) is comprised of people who have no sense of value whatsoever, but it's a status symbol to say you have a "wedding photographer". Paying a fair price for one is out of the question. To them, a blurry P&S shot is exactly the same as one of mine, or even yours. They do intend to get you there and use their own shots to minimize the amount they have to pay for prints. Most, if not all of you can simply refuse to shoot for these people. If I'm going to get any experience whatsoever, I can't. Now my frustration has built to the point where I'm having internet meltdowns.
Cordell, et al., I hear you. I'm off the deep end, but I hear you.
A little bit of bourbon has soothed the savage beast.....
It's not wether you shoot for free but what do you give them for it.
I don't care what area you come from but if you get the shots without charging as long as they don't have a copy most people can find $2000 plus for photos afterwards.
You will be amazed.
I'm sure you think you know your market but you don't. Every newbie uses that one. I appreciate you want a quick start which is why i say shooting free is ok but make sure they only get one image. Make it a poster but if you have the other images they will want to buy them.
People won't see the value of those images until they exist which is the catch22 but trust me and make some $$$
Yesterday's wedding, small intimate garden wedding. One "camera enthusiast", with his Canon DSLR, External flash, walking all over prior to the ceremony taking pics of EVERYTHING........you, know the type that you just know is going to be all over the ceremony.
I walked up to him, and said politely, "Excuse me, but I see that you just love taking photos, but I would appreciate it if you did NOT be walking all over the place during the ceremony and getting in the bride and grooms photos. Please, be a guest and enjoy the wedding, not a photographer, I would appreciate it"........
He remained in his seat for the ceremony , still taking tons of pics which was fine, but at least he wasn't in the way......same with the formals, he was blasting away, but stayed way off to the side.............
So talking nicely to people does work without having to resor to drastic tactics.
I shot a wedding last night where there was one "camera enthusiast" in the crowd - Canon 20D with all the bells and whistles that weren't needed or even practical for the occassion. She got in my way constantly as she tried to take shots of the processional and ceremony. I asked politely for her to be mindful and to stay out of my way and that of my 2nd shooter and the videographer. For the most part, she did. During the reception, however, she started getting in the way again and the mother of the bride (who also acted as the coordinator) went over to the woman and spoke to her. Although I didn't hear the entire conversation since I was still shooting, I did hear the mom state that this woman was not to get in the way of those that are being "paid to provide a valuable service" (her words) and that the camera either stays on the table or she leaves. There wasn't a problem the rest of the night.
Like Hassy mentioned, talking nicely usually does it, but sometimes a little more is needed. For most families, this is a major event, so we're not going to be able to prevent the Uncle Bobs in the world that want to be nice and offer what shots they took to the B&G instead of buying ours. And while I have no problem walking in front of a group of point and shooters if I'm lining up a shot, you still have to show some tact and professionalism - mostly because you never know who's in the crowd. I've had successful, established photogs approach me at weddings and make kind comments. And sometimes their word of mouth can be enough to blacklist someone in the area.
Truthseeker, also keep in mind that the bride-to-be making a comment about not liking another photog because he had "too many rules" might not be a good thing for you. She may say that he had too many rules but she may be thinking that it would be easier to take advantage of you for not having any. Budget brides will milk everything they can out of you. At $350-$500, you're thought of as a servant providing a quick service, at $6000, you're an artist making a work of art. At least that's been my take on the subject. Just something to think about.
Take a few cheap jobs, build your portfolio, but most of all, protect yourself. You're gonna take a loss on your first group of jobs - face it, it's part of business. But don't become a welcome mat.
Evan Baines wrote:
By contrast, my last two or three weddings I've had a relative with a DSLR who's very intent on "covering" the day. Not only have I not interfered, but I've let them have an extra PW for formals and set their camera, on the stipulation that they wait their turn. This gives them a really concrete reason to wait until I'm done, and the goodwill from my sharing encourages them to cooperate.
Am I maybe selling a few less prints on Pictage because of this? Probably.
However, I've also gotten thank-you notes from these people who appreciate my being willing to share.... and who also now realize a little more all that goes into doing a wedding right rather than just running around on full-auto. What do you want to bet those print sales will be offset by referrals?
I know you may not be in the same boat I am, but I really believe goodwill comes back to you....Show more →
I feel the same as Evan and often help guests with their cameras.
Bottom line is that there is way more to a good photographer than just knowing how your camera works. If the only skill you can hold over amateurs is reading the manual, then actively sabotaging their shots is probably your only option for success.
