I used to run the IT systems at a small company. We used tape backups, then found they became obsolete (we had the tapes, but the drive was no longer available). Switched to another tape scenario, same story a few years later. Tapes are also a pain because you have to switch them: you can't back up a terabyte dataset unattended.
I hate tapes. Different story if in fully staffed data center, but no photog is a data center.
Use hard drives. Fast, cheap, and can run attended. Put the "keepers" on the Internet for off-site storage.
You want to store 'several terabytes' of data - two copies... one offsite.
Blu-Ray method (as of today):
Burner: Avg cost= $300
Discs: Avg cost= $20 (for single layer 25Gb discs - up to $25 for 'good' brands)
Picking a number to match 'several terabytes' = 5
5 Terabyes of storage will take 40 blu-ray discs per terabyte = 200 discs.
(so much for redux down to dozens, but certainly less hundreds than DVD)
200 discs at $20 each = $4000
Offsite copy = +$4000
And you really should have another reader/writer available instead of relying on one
in crunch time - but we'll leave out that $300 because its so minimal at this point.
So, for $8,300 (+$300 for backup drive) - you can be the proud owner of two sets of 200 discs of the latest technology to keep track of an manage.
Then you can upgrade them ALL to dual layer in a year or so - to get your stack down to 100 discs per set - at another say... $4,000 maybe ??
And in a couple years after that, you can go to multiple layer discs and new burners - because blu-ray is 'expandable' (note: the technology is, not your current hardware)
Or for $200 per 1 TB hard drive (x5) = $1000
Offsite copy = +$1000
Add $80 for two USB docks for ease of data xfer
So for $2080, you can manage 5 - count them...1..2..3..4..FIVE - hard drives at two locations - that can be read on just about ANY computer that is currently being made, and for many years to come with USB/FW/eSata converters.
I'm still at a loss about the notion of having to spin up the drives to keep them alive (see above post). I know from experience, drives sitting on the shelf work just fine - as opposed to worrying about climate/scatching/etc for discs.
Lets not even talk about the time to manage/burn/store 200 discs versus the minimal effort of plugging in 5 drives. (I know my time is worth something.)
So, $8,600 for 200 discs or $2080 for 5 drives?
I'm either missing something, or I'd be willing to save you $1,600 and only charge you $7,000 to store your photos
a 5TB dump would be about 5 hard drives at 200 a pop for you. Keep that one copy wherever u want. 1000
fill them and mail them to Photoshelter, at 50 bucks a drive. thats 250, plus shipping back and forth. assume 100 bucks (insure it i guess)
so 1350 so far.
sign up for however many TB you need, in this case 5. I'm sure they can cut you a deal. figure about 2500 a year. They have a backup of everything in realtime, on two coasts.
so under 4k, and you would have flexible scalable offsite online backups, as well as hard disks that you drop in a safe, etc.
each year would cost another 2500 or so, but you said money was no object. But you also wouldn't necessarily have to keep sending in drives. Just gotta keep uploading.
I'm curious why no-one has suggested regular web hosting companies for archiving. Granted, you have to pay for a fast-up internet connection then still it would take days to upload everything, but how much slower is that really compared to burning 200 blu-ray discs?
Take Lunarpages... 1500GB of storage for $4.95 a month is a steal and all hosting companies have server and tape backup as standard. Photoshelter seems to me to be just a glorified (and expensive) hosting service.
Again, I missed something and I'm just ignorant to the online hosting situation.
I know that everybody should have their own copy of data onsite or offsite, but if I pay $5/month or $100/month for an online archiving solution, what guarantees do I have that they will be in business a year from now?
If I'm paying $5/month for 1.5Tb of storage, I know for a fact that it is costing them at least $300 to store that data (if kept online, so therefore hard drive costs)
For a 2 year term at $5/month, they'll get $120 from me in that two years. All the while drives are coming down in price.
Do they assume that people will not use all the data given in a plan and therefore $5/month from 100 people storing 15GB is a good deal. But if half the FM'ers sign up for 1500Gb all at once for $120 over two years, HOW do they make money?.... and HOW do they stay in business?
I seem to remember a few years back the huge DOT-BOMB scenario of web startup companies. Could there be a trend in data storage remeniscent of that era?
You raise a valid concern. Lunarpages and a handful of other hosting companies have been around for a long time (in internet years). No idea how they make money but they must be doing something right because they've been going since 2000 (consider the oldest hosting companies have only been around since 1996 or so). Terabytes of server space for under $10 a month is pretty common in the web hosting world these days.
I assume that if they or any other company goes out of business there would be enough warning for a customer to transfer data to another account but who knows? ANyone have any thoughts?
I 2nd/3rd/4th, etc... the Hard Drive solution. With the cost of Hard drives coming down, have a NAS (Network Attatched Storage) or even a server of multiple drives in a raid configuration leaves you with much better safe guards.With every one of the solutions you run into a draw back, to me the hard drives are the best. As one stated, already - picking up a 4bay case with say 4 terabyte drives leaves you with 2 terabytes usable. One drive goes bad, immediately swap it out, the information is auto written to the drives and you keep going. Run out of space, you just add another case, and 4 more drives. This is inevitable that you will have to keep adding. I have close to 6 terabytes worth of photos on drives and raided, on top of that - I back things up to DVD and put them in CD/DVD books (200 dvd's) then put them away till I need them.
Off site storage is VERY expensive. Using someone like iron mountain is just ungodly when it comes to the amount of space that you're having to have. However if COST is no option, I would say IRON MOUNTAIN in a heart beat, redundancy, access to info if you need it, lots of space, and lots of money!
The problem I have with HDs (and I have three of them altogether plus my main computer HD) is the off-site thing. I have not managed to find a practical offsite solution that allows me easy and regular access (not to mention security). Drivign across the city to a friend's house is really not an option. Leaving something in my GF's office is also not very secure. And I have no bank safety deposit solution anywhere near me. I'm considering a fire-proof safe for my basement, but even that is not gonna be as good as something offsite.
Well, I know IRON Mountain has off site. I am not sure how they work in your area though. At my office where we deal with alot of high security items we have a lock box (fireproof) that we put drives in, then a lock on top of the one already on the lock box. They come and pick it up and take it to the secure area... Might be something to look into... I hear what you're saying, it's a pain in the butt!
I just went to their site they do film and sound stuff, but im sure they would take your drives and or do a back up solution for you. I am curious, if you call iron mountain please share the information with us. They aren't inexpensive however.
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Regarding all the Interned-based archiving solutions, the problem is trying to get those terabytes of data back.
If I have to download all that it will take weeks to get it all IF my ISP allows that kind of traffic. I've been hassled by the amount of bandwidth I use already uploading galleries for customers and whatnot and that's on a supposedly "unlimited" plan.
Agreed, there is no ONE perfect solution.
To Hammy - It's very good to look at the cost of all this. I only want one blu-ray copy offsite and I have 3 terabytes (so far) of data so the cost is a little less than half your solution.
To Max - I'll have to take a good look at Photoshelter to see what they offer in terms of recovery ability.
I'm looking to add another storage medium in addition to the hard drives I already have to my backup solution. It appears that nobody here is using Blu-Ray yet.
I'm glad this has generated some good discussion and looks at various methods of safe-keeping our data.
This is a very good discussion that you raised. Everybody can express their desires, concerns and experience.
Blu-ray will no doubt be a mainstay in the industry, but because it is just so new, you pay for that 'bleeding-edge' technology. All facets of it will probably drop in price by 50% every 6-12 months, while the scope of the technology will double at a similar rate.
I'm still waiting for the wristwatch that stores 16 Yottabytes of data and can project holograms in front of me to see my pix!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotta-)
My concern with Blu-Ray is the longevity of the discs. Already, DVDs don't last as long as archival CDs (allegedly) so I suspect Blu-Ray DVDs will be even worse. Might we be looking at only 10 years of life vs. 50+ years for archival CDs?
On the bandwidth issue, I'm not sure it's a great problem with online solutions... that Lunarpages monthly plan for 1.5TB of storage includes 15TB of monthly bandwidth so you could upload/download all your photos 10 times months and still be OK. Time-wise you might not be OK, but bandwidth-wise you would be
.... then you need Verizon Internet (Fios) with it's 50mb connection and incredible up speeds and you will be good to go! They dont have that here in Orlando, only in Tampa and Cali! UGH!
Or you move to Japan, or the UK, or South Korea... the list goes on. Like all true high-speed internet connections in the US, FiOS is just too expensive (yeah it starts at $45 but 5mbps is NOT high speed IMO. 30mbps is, and it costs $140+ a month). But that's for another thread
Not here in Florida. 99.00 for 50 mb... :o) That was the special I was offered for the life of the contract when I was in tampa, just was moving to Orlando. I hate only having 15 meg with bright house! UGH!
EDIT: I did just look on their site, they dont even offer the 50mb any longer. I guess that was a test bed. I remember thinking to my self, how can they offer that through the life of the contract, guess I just found out lol..... GOOD GOD prices have sky rocketed... I should have just stayed in Tampa.... AYE
Yeah they don't even offer FIOS in all areas yet either. As far as Blu-Ray, I don't run that either, but I do run the HD based solution and say that I have 2 copies of everything and keep one offsite and well it works for me, but I totally understand wanting to have another solution as well.
I would hate to burn that many discs though, the time alone would be insane.
This thread has definitely turned out well and there are various "solutions" but none perfect and I don't think there ever will be.
Hammy: I didn't show you my wristwatch when you were here, man.. sorry. It does IR, WIFI, and can upload and download at 1gb speeds but it only holds 1 exabyte of data.
pipspeak wrote:
The problem I have with HDs (and I have three of them altogether plus my main computer HD) is the off-site thing. I have not managed to find a practical offsite solution that allows me easy and regular access (not to mention security). Drivign across the city to a friend's house is really not an option. Leaving something in my GF's office is also not very secure. And I have no bank safety deposit solution anywhere near me. .
Could you elaborate on this? Why can't you use a bank safe deposit box? They don't have banks where you are? (a bank safe deposit box is what I use)
Hard drives are not the solution for archiving. If you have them operating the whole time, then they're doomed to fail and are susceptible to disasters such as lightning. If they are off, then they have a nasty habit of not spinning up again after a few months. Any decay of the quality of the data over time is, at best, unproven. Hard drives are for backing up, not archiving.
Spend the cash and get a good tape system. Unlike compact disks or hard drives, these have been designed from the ground up to be robust. Better, there will likely still be drives to read them in twenty years.
.... then you need Verizon Internet (Fios) with it's 50mb connection and incredible up speeds and you will be good to go! 