Hi jerry, I think you didn't really understand my point about democraty.... You make it political, and for me, it is more a matter of democraty and tolerance...
Firstable, I have never said I was French first (by the way, I am from 100% Italian descent, see my name lol) ? I feel more a citizen of the world...
I am married to a british girl and her family live in Ontario after having moving there, and we love each other (my daughters, born in Canada have then three passports)... I have nothing against the Canadian Flag... At the opposite, I can tell you I feel myself more Canadian that Quebecer... Nevertheless, as an outsider, and because I know both world (I mean the Canadian and the Quebecer world), I must admit people in quebec have a really hard time to try to exist by themselves.. Don't forget the british, then the canadian governement tried for centuries to assimilate them, and even nowadays, they live in an ocean on english speaking people, with thousands of non-french speaking immigrants coming everyday, so they have a really hard time to preserve their culture... So that explain the hard line they had to setup in order to survive this language tsunami... Nevertheless, people from Quebec (and in Canada in general) are the less violent people I have never seen in the world, and I can repeat that either in Quebec or in English Canada, using the flag (in a such beautiful manner of course) would not have been an insult at all... Between you and me, there are other values to defend, more honorable....
This being said, we are still away of the C&C of that post
Is there any chance we can get back to discussing photography, that's is what we do here in the People Forum? Those that want to discuss nationalism, patriotism, politics or even flag-making can always use the PM button, but really guys this is getting tedious now.
Being an 11 year veteran of the US military myself, I still find that #3 is my favorite of the set (followed very closely by #6). I love your use of light and shadows in these, great work IMHO.
I would have loved to receive photos like this of my wife when I was in the desert in the early 90s.
All things considered the safest place to display or photograph the flag is on proper flagpole waving in a stiff breeze It will not piss anyone off that way...
You mean not counting the Middle to Far East, about half of Africa and a sizeable portion of anything south of the US border?
And come on, it's a piece of cloth with some dye. Someone sitting on it doesn't take away from or add anything to the USA or anything it stands for. But then, I'm from a country where people don't even bother to put the flag on a model like in these pictures.
That said, I'm not too thrilled about the pictures. Lighting and colors are not very flattering. The last is my favorite.
I too am a veteran and still in the guard. I can't say I agree with the OPs use of the flag, but I think his pictures show creativity and talent which is what we showcase here. Although perception tends to be reality, hence the frothy responses from numerous posters, it's obvious the OP meant no disrespect.
To those of you who are so against the flag you would hijack (or contribute to the hijacking) a thread I ask you a question.
I constantly see flags "flown on stiff poles" at night, unlit. I constantly see flags tattered from high winds. I see biker clubs touring around with flags waving off the back of the motorcycles getting blown to rags. While deployed I saw our flag burned. On the news you've all seen our flag burned.
Yet this soldier, this veteran who obviously has a great respect for our country, gets slammed because he wanted to be creative with the flag. Wrapping a woman in the very symbol her soldier is fighting for. Pictures meant specifically for the soldier, something the OP made clear. Pictures that I guarantee her soldier will cherish.
Unless every single one of you holier than thou posters stops and corrects every single act of disrespect as you drive along the roads you really have no place saying something now lest you become a hypocrite. Especially in a case like this.
To the OP, thank you for your service.
To the rest of you, if you have problems in the future keep it to PMs rather than hijack a thread.
For me, desecration of the flag occurs every time I see some top-level politician waving it or standing by it in some televised broadcast...especially at the very top level.
I take no issues with the use of the flag in these photos, especially given who they were shot by, taken of and intended for. I once took a series of photos of a young lady who's boyfriend was a marine in Iraq (no flags were used) and we sent them along to him. The emailed response from this marine, thanking me for the photos, almost overwhelmed me with emotion. To have been able to bring such joy into the life of a person defending this country in a land where he is mostly despised was an incredible thing. I can only imagine how the recipient of these photos is going to feel and I'm certain that our flag, if given voice, would be completely okay with it's part.
Well since everyone is at it with the Vet status, so am I. 9 Years USAF (still active, time in the Mid-East, Far East, Eastern Europe, son of 27 year Vietnam, Desert Storm/Shield vet and grand son of B-25 Pilot during WWII).
I commented on a photo series like this on Flickr a few weeks back, and it was the same reastions. I feel the same as some on here as far as the flag in that it is indeed "disrespect" whether it's meant or not.
Artistically the photos are very nice and I would love to be able to produce such photos with a soft touch to them. Her husband, as does any down range, will surely appreciate the work put into these shots.
Sadly the US is so jacked up that freedom of this and freedom of that is so misleading that you can get away with a lot these days thanks to the politricks we live by. If her chain were to ever discover these she would surely get her @ss ripped. A lot of active duty personnel make common mistakes with the flag everyday without ever knowing it and most of us will still fight and die for what it represents.
Deeje wrote:
I can only imagine how the recipient of these photos is going to feel and I'm certain that our flag, if given voice, would be completely okay with it's part.
Poignantly and eloquently expressed. What a great rebuttal to those who exalt form over substance.
Harry T wrote:
A lot of active duty personnel make common mistakes with the flag everyday without ever knowing it and most of us will still fight and die for what it represents.
Could you explain what the flag represents? I think that may help clarify why some folk get so hot under the collar with this issue.
liamh wrote:
Could you explain what the flag represents? I think that may help clarify why some folk get so hot under the collar with this issue.
One of the reasons why there is so much debate over proper use and respect for the flag is because it represents different things to different people, and almost all of those meanings or representations are reasonable. Each has its logical consequences, however.
To some, the flag itself is talismanic, subjected to the same respect one might confer upon a religious symbol or spiritual idol. To others, it represents a way of life, or social values, or a history of national and personal struggle that transcends the physical object. I think it's possible to conflate the icon reverence with the ideology, but in so doing, I think you lose a key element of the ideology; to speak freely and openly.
To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path.
lordarka wrote:
One of the reasons why there is so much debate over proper use and respect for the flag is because it represents different things to different people, and almost all of those meanings or representations are reasonable. Each has its logical consequences, however.
To some, the flag itself is talismanic, subjected to the same respect one might confer upon a religious symbol or spiritual idol. To others, it represents a way of life, or social values, or a history of national and personal struggle that transcends the physical object. I think it's possible to conflate the icon reverence with the ideology, but in so doing, I think you lose a key element of the ideology; to speak freely and openly.
To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path.
The guidelines published by the US Gov't regarding the flag is not a philosophical path. It outlines in a clear manner regardless of meaning to any citizen, for the use, display and disposal of the flag. It seems that in todays society, one can justify about anything and find validity in their argument based on their feelings.
Photos are great!! This kind of use of the flag by service people? Find that upsetting as y'all should know better.
Nice shots. #2 is very well lit imo and stands out to me.
About the flag, the code states the flag cannot be worn, not that clothes fashoined to make them look like the flag cannot be worn. A 'flag inspired' bikini, tube top, bed sheet, etc are not the flag.
lordarka wrote:
To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path.
Arka C.
I can agree with that. I remember being in the Soviet Union years ago, everywhere you turned there was a depiction of Lenin or a hammer and sickle and to me all the iconography led to a feeling that somehow this nation were worshipping a false god. History, of couse showed us all that they mostly felt the same way.
Alex53 wrote:
About the flag, the code states the flag cannot be worn, not that clothes fashoined to make them look like the flag cannot be worn. A 'flag inspired' bikini, tube top, bed sheet, etc are not the flag.
Now that makes perfect sense to me. A representation of the flag is one thing, but the flag itself is something altogether.
So, I guess the Ryder Cup wives are okay to wear their patriotic sweaters but does that mean, when a US athlete wins gold at the Olympics, picks up a flag from the crowd and drapes it round his shoulders for the photo call that he is being disrespectful because he is wearing the flag like a cloak?
Dante King wrote:
The guidelines published by the US Gov't regarding the flag is not a philosophical path. It outlines in a clear manner regardless of meaning to any citizen, for the use, display and disposal of the flag. It seems that in todays society, one can justify about anything and find validity in their argument based on their feelings.
Read the statute; it refers to treatment of the flag in terms of "should" rather than "shall." This indicates that the title section is advisory, and not positive law. Additionally, the federal courts have ruled that statutory authority obliging citizens to treat the advisory flag treatment guidelines as law are unconstitutional. Given the role of the courts in saying what the law is, and their role in interpreting the Constitution, any statutory authority conflicting with this interpretation of the Constitution would not be enforceable.
Hence, you are, in fact, free to take whatever philosophical path you want, because the Constitution permits it. Congress cannot pass statutes that conflict with the Constitution, hence the advisory character of the code section you all cite to in defense of your iconic patriotism.
Photos are great!! This kind of use of the flag by service people? Find that upsetting as y'all should know better.
Know better? To exercise the free speech rights they fight for in a way that helps their comrades in arms? Seems like they're among the few here who understand what it means to live in a free society.
