I said donating back to the church was a good idea, not mandatory. A kickback implies that you paid the sponsor money in return for preferential treatment in being awarded the gig. What is the real gripe? The sponsoring organization is allowing your work to be offered to their members, obviously the members will pay for the service or product offered at the event. BUT, now these folks will perhaps keep you in mind when they need photography in the future. THAT is a decent opportunity to which I have no problem giving an OPTIONAL "kickback" to the sponsor.
dmacmillan wrote:
Looking to change churches, are you?
Are you and the church clear this is a paying gig? What experience do you have in this kind of event photography?
Doug
Edited by dmacmillan on Jan 26, 2008 at 01:15 AM GMT
In this situation, it looks like the OP was charging the fellow parents for the photos and not the church business funds. Sounds like the OP is charging $25 per child for a sitting fee with a free 4x6, and charging a la carte afterwards. As a father of twins, I don't think I'd let my kids near that stool and bunny. My daycare center advertised a photo shoot recently and I held them out of it. I forget what the photog wanted for a sitting fee but it was expensive.
If a church goes to a member and offers a competitive monetary reimbursement for professional service, there is nothing wrong with the member taking that money and nothing wrong with serving your church with a contract. You (the member) are being viewed as a professional and is expected to perform up to usual professional standards, e.g. show up on time, having sufficient knowledge and skill, etc.
In fact, I used to engage members for work and paid the usual and customary fees to ensure the service was performed timely and satisfactorily. Part of the problem of asking people to perform free service as a favor is that they may or may not come through for all kinds of lame reasons. The compensation made the request official business for both parties.
You can certainly refuse to take the reimbursement and provide pro bono service.
What you do with the money afterwards is strictly your business. You can "tithe" part of it back to your church as part of your usual offering. You can give 100% back as a donation if you want.
Micky Bill wrote:
So you have to kick back to the church, just like you have to kick back to the kids sports league?
I think the last client I knew of who asked for kick backs was fired, but he wanted Super Bowl tickets, not cash...
I dunno how you guys do it.
I just would get a little frustrated if I was expected to 'give back' to the businesses that I work for, simply for the opportunity to work for them, but it seems like it is part of doing business for some segments of the industry...but totally not in others. Frankly if I had a choice I would rather discount the fees rather than paying a kickback or vendor fee or whatever it;s called. but that's just my opinion.
M...Show more →
Interesting perspectives from MBill. No, you don't have to kick part of it back to your church. You do it because you want to. It shouldn't be a secret, but a (Christian) church operates predominantly on its members offerings. There may be savings from prior years and unexpected donations from time to time.
The next time you go to a wedding at a church, just remember that the facilities, electricity, running water, the land, and the building all cost money. The reason it keeps going week after week because the members pay for it.
How about $20 per print or $10 for anyone who books in for a complimentary family sitting with a second 5x7 thrown in from the family session.
I would guess most would do the family sitting (booked for another time). Your cost are covered and you will make a bucket load more on the family shoots.
Now that I think about it, I guess it's different as the kickback/vendor fee doesn't go to the customer, it goes to the 'middleman' (league, church, school district) for letting you do business with their captive audience.
If someone was taking pics at an event my church was hosting and wanted $25 for a 4xx6 or 5x7 I would laugh and keep on going. I would be embarrassed to show my face at my church if I charged that much. I understand that you are in business to make money but I find it difficult to swallow fleecing the sheep. Your church is asking for your help I would assume. Why don't you help by giving your time. But also use it as a opportunity to build more business. If you feel you must charge for each print, I would say no more than $5 for a 4x6.
I would tell the church you are willing to do the event if they reimburse you for the ink and paper to make 4x6's and for them to supply "the set" of some hay bales, plastic easter eggs, and a small fenced enclosure. If the people want larger prints you can take orders and charge normal rates.
This should be viewed as a networking and marketing event for you to get your name and work out there. Give out coupons for a discounted portrait sessions and I would imagine you would get more than enough bookings to justify your time.
About the rabbits. Go to the local pet shops/farmer or just somebody who has rabbits and ask if they would let you borrow or rent some or all of them. I would say that 10 rabbits would be great and give a much greater chance for some cool shots. If you have to rent them have the church foot that bill also.
Might have to have some sign that says rabbits donated by Joe's pet store. I've found with all the work that I've done for my church is that you just have to ask. Most businesses are more than willing to help out. I once got a couple hundred pairs of shoes donated. They can only say no so get out there and ask. It also gives you another opportunity to network in your community.
Like someone said before, rabbits will get stressed after 15 or 20 minutes of "mauling" by the kids. So the more you have the better off you will be. Also expect some rabbit bathroom issues and be ready with paper towels. They do pee often especially when nervous.
Good luck and look at this as a business building event, not a money maker and in the long run you will be better off and with your reputation in tact.
Consider several aspects:
-If you love your church, just cover expenses. To charge 25$ for that is way to much (I would never charge/pay more than 10$ for a small print (4x6 or 5.x7)).
-Beware of rabbits, check their nails....you can bet that they will try to escape and you dont want to have a 5 years old crying and a parent pissed for a tiny scratch.
-If you do portraits as a part-time work, the event you describe is a good way to find future customers (I am not too much into churchs but if you are catholic or similar, consider that they will eventually do the (I do not know how do you call this in english) communion, confirmations...and they will want a photog).
My advice would be to give your best without-profit. If you are not interested in that type of bussiness, keep giving your best without profit. It is good for several reasons (you help your church, you feel good with yourself and you never know who will be some kid's parent)
I just read wetclay post and he says the same. Sorry for being redundant. At any case I second every aspect of his post.
I already had the backdrop and lights (2 umbrellas), so that was a little different.
About 3 hours of shooting with an assistant at $10/h for her pay. Really nice to have someone else lining up the kids, getting their payment, recording their names, queuing me to note the frame # that goes with a name, etc. All I had to do was shoot. And because the setup was done I took two quick shots per kid and that was it.
About 50 kids.
A 5x7 is $1.10 from WHCC (the lab I use). I charged $20 for one mounted in a paper frame/holder (these were about $9/500 from Sam's Club).
Took me less than 30 minutes to put the pictures in the frames - so no big deal there.
Out of the 75 or so in the group 50 signed up for photos. A very acceptable rate in my opinion.
If you can get $25 then more power to you. Whether it is a church or a soccer league makes absolutely no difference at all. In fact it drives me nuts when certain clients are considered "privileged" and shouldn't have to pay, or pay as much. This myth hurts all photographers.
I really like the idea of having the church pay $x upfront for a 4x6 or 5x7 and then charging extra for more photos. This way the risk burden is taken off of you. If you can take a nice looking portrait and deliver a quality product you should charge a fair price for it.
Whether it is a church or a soccer league makes absolutely no difference at all. In fact it drives me nuts when certain clients are considered "privileged" and shouldn't have to pay, or pay as much. This myth hurts all photographers.
This attitude is scary to me. If this was only about money then so be it, but to me its not.
Although I did not see any restriction pertaining to discussions on religion in the forum rules I will try to avoid a lengthy discussion on it here. But in reality this thread has everything to do with a persons beliefs in the religion they subscribe to and the church they attend.
I think the main difference here is that it is her church and they are asking for her help, or it least it seems that way.
Let me first say that I believe that a photographer can charge whatever he/she wants to and if you can get it, more power to ya. I just think there are situations where giving of your time and talent are what my God would be pleased with. If you don't agree that's ok, and if you subscribe to another religion where this is not the case that's ok too. But for me and my situation I believe that I'm supposed to give of myself to "help others". This would be like when many photogs do gigs for friends or family at a discount. Why do they do this?
In my real life I'm a cable/phone technician and many friends and acquaintences have asked for my help and I've gone out of my way to help them for free most of the time, if its going to take a few hours I ask to be compensated but not as much as the utility company charges. There is no difference in my opinion if you are a doctor, accountant, cable guy, photog etc. If you can help a friend or an acquaintence you should. And I view the church as a group of friends and family and if you belong to the family you should help when you can. Do not assume that I believe you should be walked all over and if the chruch wanted a "church photographer" that would be responsible for many hours of "work" a week you should do it at a discounted rate but with these circumstances warranted a responsibility to your "family"
There are many reasons for this and I would be more than happy to have this discussion over email if anyone cares to but I don't believe this is the right place for further explanation of my beliefs.
SteveF: Is there any situation where you discount your services other than for personal/business gain? Why? I would be interested in your reasoning for discounting your time. May I ask what type of event it was that you spoke of in your post and are you a member of that "group"?
I would never tell a photog that he/she should discount his/her prices except as part of his/her marketing plan to produce more business. If another church that was not her church asked this same photographer to do the same job for them I would have no problem with her charging whatever the market bares because it would be the typical job. If she saw fit to discount her services then so be it, but that is up to her. This was a vastly different scenario only because it was her church.
"This should be viewed as a networking and marketing event for you to get your name and work out there."
Great advice Jim. I think many photographers (Im not implying the OP is one, just photogs in general) overlook potential marketing opportunities. I have only been in this business as a professional for less than a year and all of my business has come from word of mouth. Two of my gigs cost me several hundred out of pocket, but the referrals I received from those gigs more than made up for it.
Just by getting the word out at your church that you are a photographer may land some additional business. I know quite a few people that chose someone for contract work just because they knew them from church.
Ok, I missed the part where the church asked the OP to shoot the event.
I am not a regular church goer, but this does present a different situation. Unlike what a previous poster said, it does make a difference that the client is the church the OP regularly attends. Very few people charge the church they attend for services/goods rendered. Most regular church attendees donate their time and effort.
Whatever the OP decides to do, I would make sure the church rep. was fully aware what and why you were charging..just so there are no misunderstandings.
Church events could be great to get customers... later.
I would not charge anything at all for my service and would do prints as cheap as it gets, even for free.
Provided that all prints would be accompanied by my business card. If parents like the result, they would contact you for a real family portrait session and THAT is the moment to get your investment (church shoot) worth.
If you print 300 4x6 images as "give-aways", that'll be something like:
Printing: 300 * $0.09 = $27
S&H: $15
Total: $42
Put those images the next sunday near the church entrance and let the parents pick their kids pictures with your business card (or images with small footprint/web site) attached to them. 1-2 customers later would cover your costs.
