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Archive 2008 · Hawk Owl part II

  
 
Wulff
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p.6 #1 · Hawk Owl part II


Actually Jody thats not at all correct and is dependant on the species. Were you to try shooting a NHO, well yes I imagine youd end up in alot of hot water.

For birds that fall under the mbta, baiting is likewise prohibted and where you can bait there are often distance laws... ie its ok to bait but hunting needs to take place X distance away. In most cases though its quite illegal to bait and hunt birds. Either way, best to know the Law, and when in doubt don't do it.

As for the baiting of Owls which dont fall under the mbta, it is legal but there are loopholes (harrassment which basicaly translates to pursuing it non stop but some other activiies could easily be deemed harrassmnt) and other laws like tresspassing to be careful of.





Edited on Jan 15, 2008 at 06:49 PM



Jan 15, 2008 at 06:44 PM
Thang
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p.6 #2 · Hawk Owl part II


as always, all three series are amazingly superb Jody!


Jan 15, 2008 at 07:47 PM
megaera
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p.6 #3 · Hawk Owl part II


gerov wrote:
Colin,
perhaps you could spare us with your holier than thou diatribe and threats of costodial sentences. Baiting is a debate which has two (if not more) sides, and rather than shit on Jody's thread, perhaps you could respectfully agree to disagree and move on if it is not something you agree with


Hey, Gerov - I think Colin is joking............I certainly hope so. If not, I feel an apology to Jody is in order.

I live in the UK ( no, Jody, we are not all rude and opinionated! ). Here in Wales we have a number of very popular "baiting centres" - otherwise known as feeding stations!! These were set up in order to help the survival and success of the Red Kite - a bird which was pushed to near extinction by the persecution of humans and is thriving today thanks to a re-introduction scheme. As far as I know, nobody has been sent to jail for this

Raptors are supreme opportunists. I somehow doubt the Hawk Owl will now wither away, waiting for Jody Melanson to appear with a mouse!! Give this awesome little predator more credit ( the owl, that is - not Jody!! )

Jody - your images are absolutely stunning ( sorry.....am I being too sycophantic ) Please keep them coming!!

I like to think we Brits are a pretty tolerant bunch. Live and let live etc. Well,most of us!



Jan 15, 2008 at 07:59 PM
Jody Melanson
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p.6 #4 · Hawk Owl part II


Wulff wrote:
Actually Jody thats not at all correct and is dependant on the species. Were you to try shooting a NHO, well yes I imagine youd end up in alot of hot water.

For birds that fall under the mbta, baiting is likewise prohibted and where you can bait there are often distance laws... ie its ok to bait but hunting needs to take place X distance away. In most cases though its quite illegal to bait and hunt birds. Either way, best to know the Law, and when in doubt don't do it.

As for the baiting of Owls which dont fall
...Show more

Here is my quote John.


The funny part of this is, I contacted the Minister of Natural Resources and they told me that I can bait and then shoot to kill the subject I am baiting. So I think baiting for a few pictures doesn't seem so bad.

It's too bad you don't live over here, I could take out photographing with me.


Where exactly do I say I bait the Owl to shoot? I said subject I am baiting. I meant it as a general statement. See below for what I can bait and kill if I wanted.....

Here is a quote from the MNR website here:

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/enforcement/ask_faq_wildlife.html

Question Re: Use of Bait to Hunt
There has been some discussion about this, and I have been unable to find it in the regulations.

Is it legal to bait bears in the fall, or bait deer, moose, etc.? How do buck lures, etc., fall into this? Are there restrictions on types of bait, distance, etc.?

Answer:
There are no restrictions on the use of baits (or scents, or lures) in Ontario, except those which restrict the use of bait for migratory birds and Wild Turkey.

This means that you can use either food or scents to attract deer, bear, moose, or most any other game animals. That being said, you need to also be cognizant of the Public Lands Act, which regulates the use of Crown Lands, including littering or otherwise depositing material on public land. If you were to get over-zealous with you depositing and under-zealous with your clean up, you may find yourself in conflict with this piece of legislation.

End quote.


I'm not positive on the Hawk Owl, but I do know, it is not a migratory bird. Nor is it endangered. (I would never kill an animal myself, when baiting, the Owl kills the mouse and it is quick, I do not want to see anything suffer.) But I did do research on this before mentioning it, John.

So as you say John, I do not believe I am, "not at all correct'.


Edited by Jody Melanson on Jan 15, 2008 at 08:22 PM GMT

Edited on Jan 15, 2008 at 08:22 PM



Jan 15, 2008 at 08:13 PM
Jody Melanson
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p.6 #5 · Hawk Owl part II


megaera wrote:
Hey, Gerov - I think Colin is joking............I certainly hope so. If not, I feel an apology to Jody is in order.

I live in the UK ( no, Jody, we are not all rude and opinionated! ). Here in Wales we have a number of very popular "baiting centres" - otherwise known as feeding stations!! These were set up in order to help the survival and success of the Red Kite - a bird which was pushed to near extinction by the persecution of humans and is thriving today thanks to a re-introduction scheme. As far as I know, nobody
...Show more

I do not think Colin is kidding. Some people feel their opinion is the only opinion and if you don't follow their opinion, you are wrong. I believe Hitler felt like this.

I do not hold his behavior towards anyone else in the UK. I treat every person individually, not dependent on where they are from.

You had better not let Colin know about the Kite baiting or you all might end up in jail!!!

Thanks megaera and Thang!



Jan 15, 2008 at 08:21 PM
Wulff
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p.6 #6 · Hawk Owl part II


The funny part of this is, I contacted the Minister of Natural Resources and they told me that I can bait and then shoot to kill the subject I am baiting

Thats categorically incorrect. As I said its species dependant.

Go ahead, bait some waterfowl then shoot them with a CO present. Better yet do it with whoever told you " you can bait and then shoot to kill the subject I am baiting". If a Co actually told you that verbatim they should be fired.

Some species: Yes you can
Some species: with limits
Some species: Not a chance.

In fact Jody were you to hunt say ducks or grouse ( i think) on a field that had been baited 9 days earlier, your breaking the law. For virtually all birds under the mbta its not permisable to bait and hunt.

Thats all Im addressing. If some CO told you that, they are dead wrong. Its not at all correct. I wasnt suggesting youd shoot the NHO, But if you did youd end up in hot water.

The NHO is not under the mbta, most or all raptors arent. It falls under provincial jurisdistions. It is a "specially protected Bird" as are most raptors. As far as baiting it goes, its quite legal I tihnk people should back off especially some birders .

That said there are some grey areas to be aware of though and thats all Ill say about that.



Jan 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM
ms_yuan
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p.6 #7 · Hawk Owl part II


Bait, shmait. Just some of the best pictures I've ever seen. Your work is incredible, Jody. Well done!


Jan 15, 2008 at 11:36 PM
Chris Procter
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p.6 #8 · Hawk Owl part II


add my 2p
This thread is now taking on the (Them & Us) scenario which is sad when this is probably the biggest Photography forum in the World and it gets to threats of getting someone sent to Prison

the poster about the Red Kites in Wales is spot on about the feeding stations we also have one very near to where I live and work
Red Kites are scavengers and always show up at work looking for scraps of food that any of the workers may have thrown for them

and many of us take pics of them... the world would not be as it is now if every species was vegetarian, Animals eat Animals, and always will
go to any zoo anywhere in the world and you will see the handlers feeding live food to the 'inmates'
an example


there are so many scenario's about this issue that we could go on for ever
my personal view is that Jody Melanson takes the best 'in flight' bird pictures that I have ever seen - in 14 years of being on the internet, and 20 years taking pictures
and these are up there with the best of them

can we please keep the distasteful comments for elsewhere, and lets discuss the merits of the pictures posted
cheers Chris



Jan 16, 2008 at 05:02 AM
Wulff
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p.6 #9 · Hawk Owl part II


In response to the last two post.

Baiting, at the best of times is a controversial subject. This is the 2nd thread of Jody's where he's taken heat for it.

This particular NHO is also at the root of quite alot of contention over the past few weeks so some context might be beneficial. This isnt some isolated bird, being the beneficiary of some isolated baiting. Its in the middle of a circus and its affecting everyone who has or want to go see it, to one degree or another.

The "legal" aspects have and do have some pertinence, given that some shall we say over zealous birders started making noise about it being illegal ( opinion from the humane society and mnr ). While baiting is in fact legal and as such there is some potential that anyone interfering, obstructing, harrasing people engaged in it could find themselves in hot water.

There are also grounds whereby anyone engaged in baiting could be charged. Most notably, but not limited to Harrassment. For example, baiting a King Fisher (while not technically illegal) could, depending on where and with what, could land you in a ton of trouble with fines ranging in the thousands of dollars and seizure of your equipment. What constitutes "Harrassment"? Good question, but it would seem to hinge on the legal definition of "hunt" and would most often and likely mean "chasing" said subject without respite, but again is not limited to that. One doesnt have to be "hunting" in the classical sense to fall afoul. Which when you read it sounds an awful lot like "wildlife photography".

"Bait Schmait"
that kind of approach, if you engage in baiting could find you on the wrong side of the law.

So is "baiting" legal?
Absolutely ....in most cases.... If you dont like it...lump it, there isnt much anyone can say or do about it.

Can baiting land a baiter on the wrong side?
Absolutely. Take care, know the law, and if in doubt dont do it.









Jan 16, 2008 at 11:37 AM
gerov
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p.6 #10 · Hawk Owl part II


Wulff,
thank you for your thoughtful response to this issue. It actually sheds a bit of light on the baiting issue and implications, while at the same time maintaining a neutral tone. Some good food for thought.



Jan 16, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Mike Scott
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p.6 #11 · Hawk Owl part II


I hate to resurrect a topic that's been asleep for a couple months, but I did a search for baiting and came across this thread. If yiou don't want to hear my opinion about baiting, then skip this post or skip to the end if your interested in a couple questions that I have in bold.

My position is that baiting certainly has it's place in wildlife photography and I don't understand why people get so upset about it. If it's done in a legal and ethical (moral) manner. Of course you need to do your homework to make sure that the area is not protected or the species itself protected from baiting.

Baiting for one reason or another is so widespread that I think anyone taking such a hard stance that it's always wrong is nothing but a hypocrite.

Fishing
Hunting
Photography
Birders (isn't a bird call a form of luring / baiting)
feeding -people who simply like to feed wild animals
etc,,

In my opinion. When you photograph a bird or other animal you form an instant bond and respect for it and help to preserve it. The same holds for displaying images of the bird to others. It brings an awareness to the species.

Anyway, the reason for the post is that we have a lot of owls and hawks in our area, but in 2 years I have not been able to get close enough for a decent photo (even though a red shouldered hawk hangs out in the tree across from my house).

This year I want to get close enough for some good photos and have been investigating various techniques for doing so. One of them being baiting. My question is:

What is the best way to attract a Hawk or owl to draw them closer? I have read the use of feeder rats. Should they always be live?

How about a scented decoy mouse on a string?

Do you place it in an open field close to a perched hawk and hope the hawk sees it or do you somehow attract the hawk to it presence?


Edited by Mike Scott on Mar 28, 2008 at 04:05 PM GMT

Edited by Mike Scott on Mar 28, 2008 at 04:52 PM GMT

Edited on Mar 28, 2008 at 04:52 PM



Mar 28, 2008 at 03:51 PM
natalia.atkins
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p.6 #12 · Hawk Owl part II


Magical, just Magical!!!

Thanks for the wonderful pictures, Jody. The owl is so stunning, and its wonderful to see so much detail up close. Thankyou for posting these!



Mar 28, 2008 at 04:01 PM
Greg Schneider
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p.6 #13 · Hawk Owl part II


Mike Scott wrote:
How about a scented decoy mouse on a string?


What if the raptor takes it?



Mar 28, 2008 at 04:46 PM
csd2020
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p.6 #14 · Hawk Owl part II


Jody, your shot are amazing as always. I'm ashamed to post anything here after viewing your work. Nicely done!


Mar 29, 2008 at 06:13 AM
wiens51
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p.6 #15 · Hawk Owl part II


super images!

Gerald



Mar 29, 2008 at 06:26 AM
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