fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Pro Digital Corner | Join Upload & Sell

1 2 3 … 5

7 end

Archive 2007 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

borderlight
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #1 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Steve,
Why do you and others like you fear exclusivity?

Fear, no. Maybe non-exclusivity is your issue. Except for being the official photographer nobody really cares about what you were contracted to do because they are watching the game and cheering for their kid. As you requested, I will no longer make reference to the evil security guard going through the crowd in the stands looking for a lens longer than 6 inches as more than one person have claimed. In return you should no longer recount how you've never seen it happen when you are concentrating on shooting the sporting event before you, or refer to the many pointing a camera over your shoulder for a quick shot then passing out leaflets. As we all know where you stand on the field is always the best vantage point to make exact duplicates of professional work. It's a joke, Steve.

I am now resigning as one of the official contributers to this ping-pong match.
I am awarding FotoCowboy the contract to cover me in other FM posts if he so chooses as long as he stays behind the lines and follows the rules.

Jan 15, 2008 at 01:54 PM

Steve Ickes
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #2 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Nah, I'm not that insecure that I fear NOT being the exclusive photographer. As previously posted, I enjoy the competition. I just simply think that if someone's going to pretend to be a professional they should have to do the legwork as any of us do. Dare to fly above the radar rather than sneaking below. Those are really the only people who cry when they are asked to leave. Speaking of being above board, I've attended many events in which there was an official photographer. Since I wanted to shoot the event for fun and practice I would always introduce myself to said photographer and let them know of my intentions to shoot but not solicit. To date none of these photographers has ever had a problem with me shooting the event as well. However, if they had ever expressed a concern, I certainly would have RESPECTED their wishes as the official photographer. I guess, for me, that's what it all comes down to. Respect your fellow photographer contract or not.

I will agree to disagree since we seem to see this from differing viewpoints and obviously ones in which we aren't budging

Thank you for a spirited debate.

Jan 15, 2008 at 03:25 PM

Focus Locus
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #3 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Much of this spirited debate has centered around the debated "rights" of parents taking photographs of their kids... versus the debated "rights" of contracted event professionals taking pictures with some sort of exclusive advantage.

But among parents, professionals, hobbyists, and hobbiests alike... there is one thing in common. Not one of 'em makes any money taking pictures.

It is in the selling of pictures where the money is made. And the original poster titled this thread "Unofficial photographer selling event photos....

A key difference to keep in mind if this debate rages on. And better that it rage on the subject, then on the people debating the subject. Keep the love.

Speaking of love, Valentine's Day is fast approaching, and let's say you owned a bricks and mortar florist's shop downtown. You've paid the city for your business license, the landlord for the lease and triple net, including a share of the property taxes assessed on the building and land for that shop, that is situated nicely on the corner of two PUBLIC streets.

On the morning of February 14, along comes me in my pushcart, bedecked with roses for sale. I park my buggy on the public sidewalk right in front of your florist shop, and sell roses to harried executives in a hurry right through their passenger side windows, at a price less than half of what you determined you needed to charge to pay the lease, the license, the taxes, etc to stay in business.

I'm on public property... but should you make a phone call to the city, you would be amused at how fast the local constables would ride up and ask me to roll my unlicensed, unpermitted, non property tax paying hobby cart off that public piece property.

We, in this country at least, do have inalienable rights. And we also live in a social order of rules, to prevent being overrun with the chaos that would ensue among human societies without them. That's why people from other countries without this order inplace want to move here. Legally and illegally.

Jan 15, 2008 at 07:14 PM

halie
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #4 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

I'm feeling a bit insulted after reading this because I was at a big dog show a couple days ago taking photos and the official photographer wasn't worried about me at all. Oh well, maybe he could tell I had no intention nor interest in selling or giving away photos. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that anyhow, what a pain in the ass. And for what?
I'm not a pro, and I've never even played one on t.v. But being a gwc, I do have some interest in this topic.
I agree that for someone to go in and compete for the pro photographer's business is uncool. But someone like myself, taking pictures for personal use from public access areas should be fine. How to determine who is doing what is the trick.

Jan 15, 2008 at 08:58 PM

Don M. Dean
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #5 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

searchnk9 is, I think, paranoid in addition to being totally wrong.

My Cardigan Welsch Corgi bitch was #9 in the nation a few years back. We made a lot of dogshows in the the Southwestern U.S.

There are usually upward of 10-20 rings in which breeds are judged all day long.

There usually are at least 8 rings in which groups are judged.

One person cannot be present for all the action.

I have always taken my camera and will in the future.

On the other hand, I have always bought official photographs of award from the pro. I have sent hundreds of dollars to the pro and will do so again.

Jan 15, 2008 at 09:26 PM

Steve Ickes
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #6 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Finally, several voices of clarity. Let the pros compete fairly and let the parents, friends, relatives (and dog owners) do what they want.

Halie: if your truly that insulted let me know if you're ever in Pennsylvania and I'll make sure you get your camera confiscated if that will make you feel better. Heck, I'll even make sure the event organizers toss you out

Seriously this isn't an issue of the spectators vs the pro photographer. This is an issue of those who claim to be pros but never really want to conduct themselves as such. I think Focus Locus sums it up perfectly with his florist analogy.

Jan 15, 2008 at 11:17 PM

FotoCowboy
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #7 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Finally others get it... focus nailed it.. Thanks.! I agree

Jan 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM

jeffbuzz
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #8 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Unless you have an exclusivity clause in a contract with the event organizer, you probably don't have much of a legal leg to stand on. Only other help would be some "commercial photography prohibited" clause on the back of tickets people bought to get into the event. Without those, the other shooter is simply exercising their right to make a buck.

It may behoove you to make a friend of this other person rather than an enemy as you may well be seeing them again. Thought of offering employment as a contract shooter to them? That way, you own every image they shoot

Jan 16, 2008 at 04:06 PM

Howard Barlow
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #9 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

I didn't read every post completely, mostly scanned, so I may have missed it. There is one major factor that I did not see addressed. It would not apply to the local soccer kids, but it may to AKC, or other national organization events.

It is not necessarily a matter of criminal law, and charges being filed. It is not about unions, either. It has to do with organizations having copyrights, trademarks, and full rights to commercial use of images of their organizations, etc. Try to sell images of NBA, NFL, etc. Can you say lawsuit you can't win or pay for?

Same holds true for most, if not all, colleges, universities, and other institutions. Go to a concert, grab a few images of the band/singer, or other personalities, and put them on your site, for sale.

Sure, everything is legal, until you get caught. Can you pay the piper?

And, as for the 1st Amendment comment. Not so fast. No, the 1st Amendment does not apply to every situation. It does not allow you to photograph anything you want. It's like people complaining about the same, as for being censored on forums, etc.

The 1st Amendment is aimed at government intrusion. It has NO application to the private sector. There is no protection of free speech, photographs, etc., in a private venue.

Yes, you can be prevented from making, much less selling, images at certain events.

Jan 19, 2008 at 01:42 AM

markedman
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #10 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Very hot topic that will continue to get worse as the price of good digital cameras comes down.
Two subjects here. "Poaching" and amateurs having some fun.
I must admit I get a little concerned when I see someone with "pro" gear at my event. I make a point to speak with them in a friendly manner. Just to see what's up. I introduce myself as the show photographer. Most of the time it is just a parent with some nice toys.No problem.
However when I see someone lurking in the backround with a long lens , shooting everyone, handing out cards avoiding me there is cause for concern. They know what they are doing is wrong and I will speak up. I worked hard to get these shows and I will be damned if I will let someone steal my opportunity to make a living. But it is not something to go to war over. If it is on private property than it is the promoters job to handle. With a public event all I can do is ask them to stop.
In my opinion the "right" thing to do would be to introduce yourself to the official photographer and explaine your purpose. Then I have no problem.
Granted my pics will be better but if nothing is said it will only encourage more of this behavior.
Just a view from the field.
Mark

Jan 23, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Steve Ickes
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #11 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Aaahh, the debate rages on. Although by the looks of it, there does seem to be more of a consensus. It was correctly stated that this isn't about "taking" photos it's about "selling" those photos. And yes, if you are in the "business" (I use that loosely) of selling photos but yet feel compelled to sneak around as it was accurately described, then you know you are in the wrong. If you honestly felt you had a right to do what you were doing then you certainly wouldn't be sneaking around, keeping a low profile and avoiding the official photographer.

Honestly I don't spend too much time chasing off any wanna-be's. Game and action photos are supplemental to our total photography package that we provide leagues and teams. We get a signed contract for T&I primarily and we include game coverage in the contract as an additional service. If someone wants to slink around the sidelines fine, whatever. I make my money on the T&I as well as sportraits and private sessions to which they have no access to.

My arguments are not based on lost revenue, they're based more on principal. I always assumed that a majority a photographers in this forum were at the very least serious amateurs with a profound respect for other photographers. Based on some of the discussions here it really is disheartening to think that there are those who seek to benefit from the knowledge here but yet would just as quickly undermine a fellow photographer and continue to devalue the industry through careless and self-serving business practices (if you can call them that).

Jan 23, 2008 at 01:19 PM

jclark319
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #12 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

My daughters were in a soccer tournament. I had just starteed shooting some sports in my home town and was carrying a 70-200 2.8. I actually went over to the tent and spoke with the "event photog" and introduced myself and what I was doing. I actually asked if he needed an extra shooter over the course of the week long tourney. He was cordial, could have shot for him, but my work schedule interfered with the times he needed help.

Point is, I now have 2 bodies, a 300 2.8 and a 70-200. I am still that guy that respect what the event photog is doing. I am not there to undercut him, but certainly can produce some nice images myself. I have been asked before about photos...and I have directed people to the event trailer/tent.
What is frustrating is some pompus a$$hole that is above everyone and so intimidated by the availability of dSLR's these days...to worry about a father shooting his daughter for hobby. I do shoot for people and shoot games and sell images...but not everywhere I shoot. I respect the event photog and do not intrude.

So, keep that in mind the next time you see someone at the fence with a big lens. Feel free to ask, but don't have the FBI come over to deport them from the county...it could be me...and I am a good guy.

Jan 30, 2008 at 09:33 AM

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #13 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

jeffbuzz wrote:
Unless you have an exclusivity clause in a contract with the event organizer, you probably don't have much of a legal leg to stand on.

I always have this in the contracts...crazy not to.

Jan 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM

Mark McCardell
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #14 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Reading through all 6 pages of replies was certainly an eye-opener, especially to someone that has been in photography business less than year.

I had no idea that certain venues required a fee from the photographer to shoot the event. Maybe I was naive, but I always required a fee in addition to travel expenses, lodging and the ability to market the images and so far after 8 events, nobody has ever told me no. Maybe its just the particular industry I have focused on.

Jan 30, 2008 at 04:51 PM

markedman
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #15 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Good for you Mark. But be prepared for competition. Every year my clients are contacted to shoot their events.Generally event shooters make their money from the competitors. So in the future there may be someone willing to take a chance and offer the host a different arrangement.
mark

Jan 30, 2008 at 05:48 PM

Mark McCardell
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #16 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Markedman,
What you say is very true. However, the event's I have shot, they had previously used shooters that didn't charge them. Successful event coordinators take alot of things into consideration.

Someone earlier in the post mentioned they didnt worry about scab photographers because the official photographer knew their own work was superior and I do agree that is a huge factor, but I also think that personality and professionalism is an aspect that some pro-shooters overlook.

The industry I have focused on is predominantly female and involves me closely interacting with them, and sometimes seeing them in various stages of dressing/undressing, etc.
The common refrain I have heard from the women is the 'creep factor'. Something I do not have.
When I look back over the events I have covered and individual portfolios I have done, all of it was based on word of mouth referrals. Time and again I have heard 'so-and-so said she felt so comfortable with you, unlike "insert male photographer name" ..he just gave me the creeps...'
I have gone an looked at the work, and yes from a technical aspect, the work is stunning, much better than anything I have done to date..
From a personality/professional aspect the story is different.

I guess what I am trying to say is from reading some of the posts, I think some people have not considered all aspects in being a successful photographer.

Jan 31, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Samuel Clarke
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #17 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

This is an interesting discussion. And sad to see some of the attitudes on both sides of the fence.

I'm a pro designer and the last two years I've been moving toward going pro with photography as well - and am just about there! I spend too much time on my Mac with design work and needed something that would get me away from it - plus I'm very good at both.

Anyway, while I can't speak from years of experience as a professional photographer, I have years of experience as a professional designer. And the one thing when I was still studying design that kept me from progressing as a designer was babying my work. In other words treating it like it was my child, and so going on the defensive whenever someone questioned my work or if a friend tried to get one of my clients. The reason I was defensive was that I wasn't fully confident in my work and felt vulnerable to others taking my clients...now years later I don't worry if someone tries to get one of my clients by doing work for free or next to nothing, because I am very confident that my level of design is way higher than the person who thinks they can use photoshop to design everything (which you can't btw lol). And so even if I do lose a client to some amateur designer, I know that almost always they will be back because they realize the quality of my work, and want it. And if I loose a job to an amateur who is better than me, then I need to critically analyze my work and rase the bar to stay competitive. The key is being able to detach from your work, pull it apart and analyze it to see how you can improve it so that it's the best you can make it.

I strongly believe it applies to photography too, you don't gain anything by being paranoid about people stealing your work - if you are at the pro level (and we could open up a can of worms be trying to define what makes you a "pro" - equipment while part of the equation isn't everything in my books!) you don't worry about someone who can deliver less than you can...only the ones that are better than you.

We are starting to enter a period in both design and photography where the real "pro's" are giving away tips and secrets left, right and center to the amateur crowd - why? Because they don't feel threatened by giving away hints as they have clients beating a path to their door already to do jobs for them. And they get publicity that's priceless (not to mention goodwill) by doing so. It's the new face of creative work - you either embrace it and constantly push yourself to produce better work - or you go on the defensive and will be battling for clients.

Man alive! I didn't plan on writing that much, but it kinda just flowed...

If I have stepped on any toes - sorry, I didn't mean to.

And finally, yes it makes a huge difference the attitude you have - that alone can either bring you clients or send them to the competition.

Feb 04, 2008 at 09:24 PM

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #18 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

When I have an exclusive deal, I expect it to be enforced and the other party, the event organizer/owner does too. So it is not a problem, just get it in the contract. If I see someone else shooting and they are selling, sometimes I talk to them, mostly I don't have time. Just a quick cell call to the organizer and they take care of it. But I've been doing this for years and rarely does it come up where it looks like other shooters are more than just non-commerical folks...and I don't care about that. But I can't stop people with no ethics from trying to sell unless I see it or hear about it...usually later. Then I don't contact them, the sponsor does...and they are strict. And when you go to the team's (or theatre, or event...whatever), you see my stuff for sale and no one else's. Field access is another dimension and if that is controlled, then I don't have to do a thing...that is taken care of by the event.

Feb 04, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Steve Ickes
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #19 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Samuel:

Although I cannot speak for others, I can tell you that I'm not driven by paranoia or insecurity. The point for me is that I do put forth an effort when presenting to an organization. I take the time to contact the right individual, take time to get slotted into their agenda, put together a presentation and information packet, draw up a contract, and take my time to attend their meeting and introduce myself. I won't go into the expense of insurance, background checks, child abuse history clearance, equipment, etc since that's already been discussed. whether or not my images are superior or not is really not my issue. I'm not there to compete with another photographer who decides it's more appropriate to lurk on the sidelines. All I have to do is satisfy my clients. If an organization is not happy with my work or work product, they will shop around the next season and probably end up getting what they paid for in one way or another. Simple.

I'm not the moral compass of the photo industry however I would think that any photographer who claimed to be a professional would want to conduct themselves as such. That might be true in a perfect world but unfortunately there really is no such thing. So in the end if someone wants to "scab" work in this manner so be it but don't think you're going to come to me when you have questions or just want to make idle chit chat. Oh and if this is how you choose to operate, shame on you.

Feb 05, 2008 at 03:41 PM

Samuel Clarke
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #20 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Steve:

I agree with you that particularly event photography has a huge amount of behind the scenes expenses and paperwork that an amateur doesn't have. It sounds like you're confident about the quality of your work and the price you charge for it - that's great. And even though the amateur crowd is annoying in that they have no overheads and so can choose to do things for nothing, they really are like a barking dog with no bite - annoying, but generally harmless. And while they can sometimes take work away from us, they can't keep it up...and if clients are happy with work done for them, they will recommend you to others, which leads to more work - and generally those sort of clients won't be affected by the amateur crowd.

Feb 05, 2008 at 09:11 PM

1 2 3 … 5 6 7 end
FM Forums \| Pro Digital Corner \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 5 6 7 end