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Archive 2007 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

  
 
invalid2
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p.3 #1 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


John Patrick wrote:
...Every sale of a photo of an image of a pro athlete is restricted by the player's union, their agent, their team, and the league.
...
If a pro team represented found out, that might be very bad. At the minimum a C&D letter, at the most an audit of your sales and charges filed.


Would you mind explaining what charges could be filed after the event is over.



Dec 13, 2007 at 02:26 AM
butchM
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p.3 #2 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


John Patrick wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you have the legal right to sell college or pro sports photos. Sales of college photos may impact eligibility, while sales of pro photos are in direct violation of the rules you agreed to when you went to the game (read the back of your ticket). Every sale of a photo of an image of a pro athlete is restricted by the player's union, their agent, their team, and the league.

If a college represented in your shots were to find out, that would be bad.

If a pro team represented found
...Show more

These same rules apply to photo press credentials as well. Photojournalists covering a pro (and most prominant Div I college sporting events) are aloowed to use the images for strictly editorial use. You are not allowed to use it for any commercial use whatsoever including promoting your own skills or business unless you have expressed written consent from all the entities involved. I once had a stringer at the paper I worked at who shot a D1 football game and used the images in a promotional calendar for his studio. The school and NCAA was all over him and the paper almost lost their credentials permanently. The key is if those involved don't know you are doing it, no problem, but when they do discover you are doing this, the hammer will come down hard.



Dec 13, 2007 at 11:16 AM
SoloHiker
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p.3 #3 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


butchM wrote:
I do a lot of event photography and even when I am the "official photographer" I NEVER worry about who else is shooting with whatever equipment as long as they do not interfere with me doing my job. I do my job and let the chips fall where they may. Protectionist attitudes certainly have no place in a free market system, IMHO.


butchM, thanks so much for posting a realistic reply to this thread. I think using the word "protectionist" hits the nail right on the head: if you're comfortable with your own skill, eye, and marketing talent, you have nothing to fear from the "free" or low-cost people. I also feel that IF it is a private event AND the organizers have CLEARLY posted No Photography signage, the etiquette is obvious. Barring those conditions, all bets are off. Period.



Dec 15, 2007 at 07:08 PM
butchM
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p.3 #4 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


SoloHiker wrote:
I also feel that IF it is a private event AND the organizers have CLEARLY posted No Photography signage, the etiquette is obvious.


I don't have a problem with that at all. Private is private. When I do work a private event, I won't waste my time policing GWCs as I am more concerned with doing my job, If the organizers are concerned, they can work that end of the situation

Besides, it can hurt them more with unauthorized sales of images that myself.



Dec 16, 2007 at 01:23 AM
Cementjungle
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p.3 #5 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I'm sure you'd feel just a bit threatened should they choose to walk into your place of employment and declare that they can do you job just as well and willingly do it for free.

That's not a fair comparison at all. The amateur/parent aren't interacting with anyone who has been working with you, the designated pro. The other parents didn't choose to work with you, they're just watching the event. Now, if this amateur made some offer to the event organizer to undercut you or something, then you should be angry.



Dec 17, 2007 at 02:46 AM
Chris Fawkes
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p.3 #6 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Contact him and talk. People often make mistakes and simply need to be told. This may be the case.
If he shows attitude can you have him banned from future games?



Dec 20, 2007 at 06:58 AM
butchM
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p.3 #7 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Focus Locus,

When and if I accept an event contract, rest assured I AM getting paid up front. I have long passed the stage in my career where I shoot strictly on speculation of a profit.

If others choose to be at risk, so be it. If they choose a business model that puts them at risk of showing a profit based on exclusivity. Too bad for them. That is the nature of business. We live and work in a FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. In such a system there is no room for exclusion. Period.

I broke into this line of work decades ago, and have learned from the hard lessons of life, as to what works and what doesn't. I have confidence in my abilities and work accordingly.

I also will NOT deal with any organization/entity the desires to operate outside of the free market system. This country did not get where it is today, because of protectionist attitudes.

If you look at history, when these protectionist philosophies have come into play, that is when we have experienced severe problems.

I don't, and won't "pay" a host to do my job. I will voluntarily, with financial means, support the organizations I work with through advertising and donations. My choice, not the host's.

There are NO guarantees in this life, especially in business. For every potential of profit, there is an equally potential risk. If you work events and fear competition, my experience is ... risk nothing .... profit little.

I may be old school in these thoughts and philosophy, but it is what I live by.

In this day and age where multitudes can afford a top of the line DSLR and a couple of decent lenses, they too believe they can be pros. Many fear that competition. I say, the more the merrier. I am confident enough in my abilities and my business sense not to fear competition ... I thrive on it.



Dec 23, 2007 at 12:34 AM
nathanlake
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p.3 #8 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


SoloHiker wrote:
butchM, thanks so much for posting a realistic reply to this thread. I think using the word "protectionist" hits the nail right on the head: if you're comfortable with your own skill, eye, and marketing talent, you have nothing to fear from the "free" or low-cost people. I also feel that IF it is a private event AND the organizers have CLEARLY posted No Photography signage, the etiquette is obvious. Barring those conditions, all bets are off. Period.




Solo & Butch - I have to believe that neither of you rely on your photographs for supporting you. If you do, then you need to take a short business class so that you understand how it should work. The first time you see someone selling pictures that only you have the legal right to sell...AND you are having a hard time making ends meet, you will change your mind.

Yes, a professional's images should be better quality and you should be able to out-market the amateur, but neither of those will assure you 100% of the market. If your marketing and professional images have convinced an event organizer that you deserve the exlcusive rights to sell images of his event, then that is what should happen.

This is no different than the NFL or NCAA except as a matter of degree. The organizer of the event has the right to control image sales in most cases. As a professional, I make use of that right to earn a living.



Dec 23, 2007 at 10:12 AM
butchM
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p.3 #9 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


nathanlake wrote:
Solo & Butch - I have to believe that neither of you rely on your photographs for supporting you. If you do, then you need to take a short business class so that you understand how it should work. The first time you see someone selling pictures that only you have the legal right to sell...AND you are having a hard time making ends meet, you will change your mind.


Nathan,

I can't speak for Solo, I assure you MY work and photographs support me very well. I really don't need a business class on how it "should" work. I know very well how it DOES work.

My only source of income is through my business (sole proprietorship of a portrait-wedding-action sports-comecial studio). My studio rent is paid on time and in full. My utilities are paid on time and in full. My insurance is current and paid in full. I have no debt as far as my business is concerened. When I need equipment or materials. It is paid for in full when ordered. Somehow, to me, I think I have a good handle on business and how it works.

My business model works very well for me. If you choose to work by a different model, secure exclusive rights to an event and still have difficulty in making ends meet. Who really would benefit more from a business class? I don't need or expect exclusivity to be successful. I am uncomfortable with protectionist policies becoming the norm. As you have pointed out, even with the protection of exclusivity, there are no guarantees you will make any sales, let alone earn a profit from those sales.




Dec 23, 2007 at 01:19 PM
Focus Locus
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p.3 #10 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


butchM wrote:
"Besides, it can hurt them more with unauthorized sales of images that(sic) {than?} myself."


That sounds like you get paid the same, and/or paid by the event organizer, no matter how many pictures sell or don't sell. Perhaps similar to full time staff editorial assignments, where you are sent to cover an event, and whatever pictures the assigning editor uses or doesn't use, doesn't really matter.

I'll bet that there are some respondents to this thread that have much more at risk. They are the designated photographer, but the event organizer is paying them nothing. In fact, the opposite is true. The designated "pro" photographer actually paid the event organizer to be there, in exchange for special access to the event and the privilege of selling pictures to the participants.

If PWCs are afforded the same access that the pro photographer PAID for, that reduces the potential market the pro was counting on when the payment amount was conceived. If the PWC, while standing in the privileged access area, not only take pictures for themselves, but also take pictures of their friends, neighbors, teammates, and at random, and furthermore give them away, than that further erodes the potential market value of the fee that the pro photographer paid to cover the event.

I've witnessed several situations where the pro photographer paid as much as $2,500 out of pocket, up front, for the rights to photograph a single event with less than half that number of participants. There is most certainly something at stake for that photographer when PWC's are given the same floor/stage/sideline/trackside access that the pro had to pay real money for.

Where there is something at risk, the feeling of being threatened might be more pronounced. Even if the quality of the pro's pics is solid, people by nature would often rather receive something for nothing, and more often these days, with the improvements in technology at a lower price point, the pics from the PWC are good enough, especially when free.

It is difficult for both the pro and the event organiser to boot PWC's off the special access area. No one wants to engender the ill will of the participant's parents. Most people identify with the inalienable right of access parents have with and to their children. Most people stand behind the ideas of freedom. So it is always a tough and uncomfortable call to ask an enthusiastic hobbyist who is also a Dad to leave the sideline and go back into the bleachers, while saying nothing to the other Dads on the same sideline who don't happen to have DSLRs pinned to their faces.

In random answers to this thread, there is a hint of a high falutin' attitude akin to "as a pro, my pics don't stink, therefore no other real pro should worry about who's got a camera nipping at their heels." To that I have to wonder how much experience that pro has in today's climate of event photography.

It cost's big bucks out of pocket up front, not only to pay the event host, but just to show up with shooters and computers. Hotel, airfare, car fare, and food for all the staff, plus their day rates... the event software license fees, web hosting, and office time post processing deliverables... the convention center bill for the power drop used to plug in the computer, plus the phone line drop to process credit cards... it adds up to the kind of costs that threaten bankruptcy to the event photographer, that is quite a different experience than a PJ running in with a back pack, a 70-200, and the surety of a check in the mail by the end of the week.

I can still see why an event photographer would feel threatened. One of the very best photographers that I've ever had the honor of meeting gave up event photography because of the cannibalization that PWC's handing out freebies eroded his market with. He had the official "exclusive" rights to a horse park for equestrian events. His pictures were gorgeous. His reputation for quality was impeccable. His equipment investment was unmatched. His permanent booth onsite was built more attractively than custom homes. His attention to detail in the prints was beyond reproach. His single shot timing of the horse's peak action was uncannily superior to a swiss metronome.

There was no possible room for improvement in his work. But there was plenty of room ringside for the PWCs to shoot. There was plenty of room in his prices to be undercut. There was plenty of room for affordable technology to make "good enough" attainable in average hands. There was yet enough room for him to call it quits... to the loss of everyone, sadly. So the idea that quality rises above all did not in this case manifest itself to be a reliable peg to hang a hat on.





Dec 22, 2007 at 08:25 PM
butchM
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p.3 #11 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Focus Locus,

When and if I accept an event contract, rest assured I AM getting paid up front. I have long passed the stage in my career where I shoot strictly on speculation of a profit.

If others choose to be at risk, so be it. If they choose a business model that puts them at risk of showing a profit based on exclusivity. Too bad for them. That is the nature of business. We live and work in a FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. In such a system there is no room for exclusion. Period.

I broke into this line of work decades ago, and have learned from the hard lessons of life, as to what works and what doesn't. I have confidence in my abilities and work accordingly.

I also will NOT deal with any organization/entity the desires to operate outside of the free market system. This country did not get where it is today, because of protectionist attitudes.

If you look at history, when these protectionist philosophies have come into play, that is when we have experienced severe problems.

I don't, and won't "pay" a host to do my job. I will voluntarily, with financial means, support the organizations I work with through advertising and donations. My choice, not the host's.

There are NO guarantees in this life, especially in business. For every potential of profit, there is an equally potential risk. If you work events and fear competition, my experience is ... risk nothing .... profit little.

I may be old school in these thoughts and philosophy, but it is what I live by.

In this day and age where multitudes can afford a top of the line DSLR and a couple of decent lenses, they too believe they can be pros. Many fear that competition. I say, the more the merrier. I am confident enough in my abilities and my business sense not to fear competition ... I thrive on it.



Dec 23, 2007 at 12:34 AM
shatterkiss
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p.3 #12 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Butch -

Given your description of the kinds of work you do, I suspect you simply don't understand how the types of event photography that other posters are discussing function. Put simply, the lines you draw in the sand work fine for assignment work but wouldn't fly at all for the kind of work being discussed. There is no singular client who can pay you a defined single rate...there are a multitude of people willing to purchase a multitude of images. There is a single event organizer who is in the position of brokering the opportunity of exclusive coverage in exchange for a fee. That other people are willing to work speculatively and you aren't doesn't mean that you're somehow smarter and more successful in your career...it just means they've chosen a different specialty with different customs. I work primarily in assignments as well, but I've also shot plenty of rock concerts and events on spec in order to shop the images around after the fact...if purchasing exclusivity was an option there I'd jump on it. And I'm aware that when I shoot concerts I have to wear a different hat and approach the business of shooting differently than when I'm being booked for portraiture or fashion work as it's a market with different rules.

But I don't see that your denigrating the customs of the world of event photography is relevant. Focus Locus hit it on the head: exclusive photo rights arrangements are how that world works, and folks walking in with pro-level cameras and shooting the same event on a lark is simply a violation of the event terms.



Dec 23, 2007 at 08:35 PM
butchM
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p.3 #13 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


shatterkiss,

I understand completely how the system you describe works. I have turned down several such offers because they demanded extremely large sums up front for exclusivity with no track record of past statistics to warrant such investment or the agreements they wished me to sign, strictly limited my ability to generate income after the event. For those events that were willing to negotiate more equitable arrangements, I accepted. Unfortunately, under most event exclusivity agreements, the ability to generate a profit is stacked too heavily in favor of the event organizer. Which is why I choose not to work under such agreements.

If my earlier comments came off as denigrating I apologize. My intent was only to describe my views. I may have not bee as polite as I should have been. There is no right or wrong model for how individual photographers choose to conduct business in an ethical manner. Only that I choose not to work on spec alone or buy in for exclusivity on the vast majority of my event work. I do not condone other pros showing up and infringing upon duly appointed official photographers. Myself or otherwise. No one has a right to violate event rules.

I am no smarter or no more successful than a great many others in this business. It was mentioned that I apparently was unaware how business worked and I would benefit by taking a class. I simply explained that I am very well aware how business works. I am also well aware what is customary in the realm of event photography.

Case in point -

There is a long-time annual youth sporting event held in my community. Several years ago the organizers contacted me about providing event photography services. They showed me a contract they procured from a similar event elsewhere. I reviewed the document as well as the number of participants, number of individual games played and calculated my costs and overhead to provide the services. The numbers just did not work out to offer the profit I needed to make the investment. I pointed out that because they would allow local newspaper coverage of the event, they could not offer me total exclusivity as both major papers offer the sale of reprints online, not just published images, but all of the images their PJs shoot. I was not going to insist they turn away the local media, I just factored this in my decision and calculations. I presented the organizers with a counter offer that made us partners in the venture with equal risk. They declined.

For three years they were able to secure the services of photographers from outside the area who agreed to their terms. A different photographer each year, because they discovered under the original terms, there indeed was no way to operate without a loss. Two of the three photographers in question demanded a refund of the fee they paid the organizers. I'm not sure if they ever received a refund, however, I do know they made life miserable for the organizers.

Two years ago the organizers contacted me and asked if I would be inclined to reconsider accepting the job under my initial counter offer. I did. We worked out a marketing strategy that benefited all involved. Sales have gone well and the organizers receive a share of the sales based on a threshold. As sales go higher, the percentage paid to the organization as a donation, also increases. By working in this manner we both benefit and have equal incentive to market my services. In fact, the organizers share, this past season, was nearly double, what they had initially demanded in that first offering.

I may be wrong, but I think I get it.



Dec 23, 2007 at 11:41 PM
Mary Riley
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p.3 #14 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I am a photojournalist shooting for a community newspaper. Last summer, I took my camera to an equestrian event to shoot photos for my own portfolio. While there, I learned there was an official photographer at the show.
I was told I could shoot to my heart's content but was not permitted to sell any of the photos (the show was on private property).
I shot a lot of photos that day and was very happy with the results, but I respected the other photographer's right to make a living at her craft and did not attempt to sell any of the photos I took.
As a salaried photojournalist, I am fortunate in that I don't have to worry about where my next paycheque is coming from, and I believe anyone with the guts to make a living as a pro photographer should be respected, especially when they are an official shooter at an event.
IMHO, my shots were as good as the show photographer's and that was my reward



Dec 24, 2007 at 08:47 AM
Marty Bingham
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p.3 #15 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Well said shatterkiss, you seem like a pretty sharp fella

ButchM on the other hand is confusing me a little bit. If I am following right he starts out against exclusive contracts then says one of the reason's he turned down an event was because the press folks were allowed to sell online and he would not have exclusive rights.

Then when the organizers came around to his way of thinking he wound up paying them nearly twice the original offer.

I dunno, I'm just an ol' country boy, but that don't add up to me



Marty



Dec 26, 2007 at 01:51 PM
butchM
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p.3 #16 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Marty,

You are correct, shatterkiss is a very sharp and telanted fella. His posts have always helped me.

I'm an old time country boy as well. Their original contract only guaranteed that THEY would profit no matter what transpired. My counter offer was written in a manner, if successful, WE would profit.

I said, I refused to pay a large sum up front for exclusivity. As I pointed out they could NOT deliver that and still allow the local papers coverage and preclude the papers from their normal routine. I wasn't about to pay for something they could not deliver. If the event organizers were to limit the papers usage of the images, it would be very likely, the papers wouldn't bother to cover the events. (I had worked for both papers in the past and have direct knowledge of how they operate) The event benefits from that coverage.

I woulkd like to add, this was one of many items on the original contract I took issue with and many were negotiated. As in THEY wanted to have total control over my pricing. Their pricing was rediculously high for this market. Probably why the other three photogs failed.

Rather than hand over a large check in advance, I opted for a partnership. Where both I and the organizers work together and share the profit. I set a threshold or minimum of sales (equal to my net costs for working the event). If my sales were below that minimum, I owed the event nothing. If my sales exceeded the minimum, the event received a percentage of my enitre sales. As the sales figures go higher so does the percentage paid to the event. Like I said, now the event organizers have a vested interest in my success, and I in their's. The more I make, the more they make. That is free enterprise. The event earned a commission. Far different from collecting an entry fee. Sales this past year were excellent, therefore they profited more than they would have from their initial contract. So did I.

I also contributed to the advertising expenses via sponsorship, leading up to the event on radio and newsprint as well as the event program.

In country terms .... like the tale of a pig in a poke .... I was very interested in purchasing the pig .... I just made sure the pig was actually in the poke before I paid for it.

I realize not everyone would take the time to negotiate a better agreement. Many organizers would have sent me packing on my counter offer. In fact, this one did ... for three years. With the number of good shooters out there willing to work events, It's far easier for organizers to dictate what is customary. However, it is a choice to work under those customs. Currently, I have the luxury to choose not to.



Dec 26, 2007 at 04:16 PM
Marty Bingham
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p.3 #17 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I see.......Thanks

Marty



Dec 26, 2007 at 05:23 PM
Sports Shooter
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p.3 #18 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Rocketball wrote:
Just thought I'd post some thoughts from the other point of view ........

I had a similar experience a few years ago at the PONY Nationals fastpitch softball tourney, but I was NOT the "official photogrpher". I was the "other photographer".

I was one of the Dads watching my daughter play and was shooting her teams games from the sidelines, as I always do. Half way thru their first game, the tourney director approaches me and asked who gave me permission to shoot the game. Well, I said "nobody, I'm here to watch my daughter's team play". He told me I had
...Show more



Rocket

Interesting comments and situation. I was the "Official Photographer" for state LL tournaments held by one of the regions here in AZ. You were singled out because of your equipment. I had a gentleman shooting at one of the games with a 5D and 70-200. I assumed he was a dad and started a conversation. Turns out he is not a dad and was shooting at the request of a dad. I advised him I had no problem with him shooting the 1 boy but shooting the entire team and giving images away was an issue. When advised by the district admin of the arrangment we had he chose to leave. The emails started flying about rights and "nobody can stop me from shooting my kid"
I met the dad the next game and invited him to join me in the shooting well ( he was shooting with a MKIIN and asked that he only shoot his child. A short discussion and he understood the economics of it and limited his shots to his son. No more problems the rest of the tournament.
Respect what the official photog is doing and limit your shooting to your child and there would have been no problem. put your self in his shoes.

just my 2 cents
Mike
There is 1 school I won't shoot in our area as the sidelines are a sea of white glass and I choose not to ask parents to stop shooting their kids.



Dec 26, 2007 at 09:39 PM
mlane
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p.3 #19 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Roketball -

We've heard from photogs, and "dad's with cameras" - now how about from a tournament director?

I have a unique situation - because I am also the DA that Sports Shooter is talking about. My agreement with him is exclusive and I get a percentage. The money I get from him help pay for the baseballs, fields, etc. for the dad to let his kid play in an all-star tournament. If I let the dad give away photos to his team, then SS not only loses money, but I have less funds to work with during tournaments.

Every year, I have to explain:
1) I don't know who the person is taking photos. With a contacted photographer, I require nationwide background checks - I get the information from the photographer and I do the check. First, it is required by LL for me to do so, since they are going to have continuous contact with the kids.

2) Which leads me to I don't know WHY you are taking the photos. The end of #1 makes me comfortable that the person taking the photos is doing it for the right reason. I would think that any mom or dad would appreciate that.

3) Every attempt must be made to shoot all teams and, NOT just those in the semi-finals, finals or high income areas. (Mike and I even shot team photos for a low income area league - for just the cost of processing. It was the FIRST time the kids in that league had team photos taken EVER.) Another local company contacted me before I borught Mike on. They told me they could only do a few teams (high income leagues) and not all teams. My answer was no.

As the DA, I have a responsibility to protect the safety of the kids in my program. That is first and foremost to me because of my position in LL. Second is that every kid has the oppotunity to see themselves in print. Then, comes the business aspect of helping pay for the cost of the tournament.

There are more things involved behind the scenes than just not letting a dad shoot just for the "exclusive" photog to earn money.

Mark



Dec 27, 2007 at 11:53 AM
FotoCowboy
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p.3 #20 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Mlane I agree with what you said. The offical photographer will have the liablility insurance and the dads with cameras wont. But there are other issues also. As a photographer that does photography and specializes in photography of all kinds, there are other issues that come into play if your not aware of things when your the soccor mommie.

This is an example of what had/has happened to a photographer this link explains alot of the other issues of making sure you have an offical photographer. And know who he/she is. there is alot to read there.

http://www.pbrbuckingbulls.com/

You also must know who the photographer is, you dont just want someone to show up and take pictures, and you dont know them, they show up only once, and you have no clue as to how to contact them, and they are taking pictures of your kids! for what? you hope not for any thing bad.

Also I had it happen where a photog used me as there advertisement. People would come to his booth at an event I was at, and ask, are you the photographer thats in the arena. he would say yes. And his work was not up to standard. His prices were sky high. The lady later came to me because i was in the arena doing the pictures, and said "she thought it over, she wanted her money back, I looked at her and said "what" i didnt sell you that picture, I dont print on sight. mine are from a real lab. That was when that phtotog and I didnt get along. Its just curtious to the offical photog that has spent hours, prepairing for the pro job he has been contracted to do.

Just my 3 cents worth.



Dec 27, 2007 at 03:05 PM
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