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Archive 2007 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Steve Ickes
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p.2 #1 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Personally contract or not I'm not sure that I'd want to put the organizer in a position to have to enforce our contract and thereby possibly alienate a spectator, participant or relative of. In my mind they have so much more to be concerned about than preventing spectators from taking photos. I think I'd almost feel like a small child running to my parent to tell on "little Johnny" for sticking his tongue out at me. Don't misunderstand, I also make money from my photographs and services but I tend to agree that as professionals we shouldn't necessarily be so territorial. Like Hammy, I welcome conversation with parents, family or friends who have cameras at events. I've had many parents ask me about the equipment because a 400mm f2.8 lens can attract a lot of attention at certain events. They are genuinely impressed and fascinated by it. Burn off an 8 frame sequence and watch their eyes light up as they drool uncontrollably (that's my favorite). If they are a hobbyist they love to talk shop or ask questions of the "expert". I regularly get emails from several parents I've met this way, and maintaining that rapport has only served to get me more business from them and the league. They have become my staunchest supporters when it comes to submitting proposals because they appreciate the quality of the work.

Yes, people will give their images away but I don't really see this as a threat. People who fawn over snapshots given to them by an amateur parent photographer are usually not the same people who buy my prints anyway. I've regularly worked alongside of parent photographers and they are simply people who are enjoying the wonders of photography. I've never had anyone tell me that their equipment and images were better. As I move up and down the sideline, they readily move out of my way. If I set up alongside of them, they will always move a way a bit to give me room although I never ask them to. The only incident I can recall was a woman who told me that no one would buy any of my prints, they were too expensive. Turns out she had been shooting the teams in previous years and then selling them for $.12 for a 4x6. I told her that may be true but that she had to keep in mind everything that was involved with me getting those images, from acquisition to post processing, including the $12,000 worth of equipment I was toting around. I also went on to explain that if they were going to take the time to take and sell photographs themselves why would they sell them at cost? Since they were a non-profit organization, they should at least be making something that can be put back into the organization. Anyway, she was wrong as people bought up prints left and right including her!

Moral of the story is: build relationships not walls. Instead of being threatened look for ways to make your images so compelling people won't care what they can get for free. When it comes to dogs and pets in general, it's amazing what people are willing to do and spend. I can almost guarantee that a $150-$200 studio portrait of their champion pooch is going to be a lot more desirable to them than a free snapshot.

On the other side of the coin, I also feel that if you are a parent or spectator who simply enjoys taking pictures of your children, don't be so arrogant as to declare your inherent "right to take whatever damn pictures you please where ever you choose to take them." As photographers you should be a little more sensitive to the fact that someone else is there probably trying to scratch out a living doing this. I'm sure you'd feel just a bit threatened should they choose to walk into your place of employment and declare that they can do you job just as well and willingly do it for free. As already posted, whenever I just want to go out and shoot some new events for the fun and challenge, I will always look for an "official" photographer just so I can let them know that I'm there and have no intention of selling or giving any images away. Showing them a little respect goes a long way to preventing issues on either side of the fence.

Dec 11, 2007 at 01:58 PM

BubbaJon
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p.2 #2 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Well said for both sides of the fence Steve!
Kudos!
Jon

Dec 11, 2007 at 02:15 PM

nathanlake
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p.2 #3 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

There is a big difference between taking pictures of an event and selling pictures of an event. When my contract grants me exclusive authority to offer pictures of the event for sale (I always try for this), it also requires that the organizer "take reasonable steps to ensure that exclusivity".

I have no problems notifying the organizer when my rights are being violated and I fully expect them to make some effort to make it right. The reality is that I don't expect them to go to court over it in most cases. I do expect them to ask the offending party to stop sellig the images. Usually this works.

This is much easier when the event has specifically prohibited image taking or sales without permission. A lot of smaller events don't do this and then you can do no more than ask the other party to stop.

Dec 11, 2007 at 02:57 PM

BubbaJon
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p.2 #4 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

nathanlake wrote:
There is a big difference between taking pictures of an event and selling pictures of an event.
But one is being equated with the other if someone is asked to stop taking pictures just because they have pro quality gear. I'm a firm believer that a little conversation can go a long way...

Dec 11, 2007 at 03:19 PM

Focus Locus
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p.2 #5 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

I might as well just be honest...

1. When I'm the event photographer, I almost ALWAYS feel threatened by other people with cameras shooting the same event I'm shooting.

2. Whether they have D3s or cellphones doesn't matter, I still feel threatened.

3. I almost NEVER assume that my images will be "better" than the parents.

I noticed that most other event photographers assume the exact opposite. For example, Hammy says above that he KNOWS that his images will be better than the parents. However, Hammy also says that he himself is a parent, and shoots his own kids at events. If I were the "official photographer" at one of his kid's events, would my images be better than his simply because I was shooting in a professional capacity? I don't think so.

I assume that the parents shooting events I'm photographing are just like Hammy... great photographers. They might be AP photographers or commercial photographers traveling light with a simple point and shoot. They might amateur or hobbyists with an amazing artistic eye. Judging the equipment they happened to have is not a reliable means of assessing the usefulness of the images they produce with it.

Not only that, but parents have the added advantage of personal familiarity, knowing exactly what their athlete's routine is, or habits are, while I am only seeing it for the first time on that event.

So yes, I feel threatened. They probably determined that my photography sucks, so that's why they are taking their own pictures instead of relaxing and enjoying the event knowing that they can be satisfied buying mine. Yet my financial risks and costs to shoot the event remain the same, so it hurts not only the ego, but the pocketbook when they shoot their own pictures and don't buy mine.

So what am I doing as the official photographer shooting the event, you might ask? Well, it could be that no one else stepped to the plate to cover that event. No one else invested in the means to view and sell images to everyone else who didn't bring their own cameras, or are not able to take good pictures. No one else commited to being there for the ENTIRE event, to shoot EVERY athlete, to the several days of preparation before hand and several weeks of post processing afterward, to the 18 hour workdays, to the transportation and lodging costs, to the booth and staffing expenses, etc..

So when that parent, who I can only assume is a better photographer than I am, can cruise in when they feel like for little to no cost because they are going to be there for their kid anyway, and snaps off some more pics of their kid's teammates and friends while they are at it, and of course makes them available when they get home, as they are free to do, I'll be honest and admit to feeling threatened.

And there really isn't anything I can do about it. It's just a feeling I have to deal with.

"Getting better" isn't the panacea to making the feeling go away. As a matter of course, I'm always striving to "get better", so that already goes without saying. But the fact is, no matter how good a person gets, there is always someone out there who will be better. And that someone could just as likely be the parent shooting over my shoulder. Why would I assume that it couldn't be?

Dec 11, 2007 at 04:58 PM

nathanlake
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p.2 #6 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Focus Locus,

You missed one key aspect that I always count on. I am there to take pictures...most parents are not. They are there to watch the game. Therefore, they tend to miss the most exciting stuff because they are too busy watching. The pictures they do take might be as good as mine, but they don't take the same pictures.

Dec 11, 2007 at 05:13 PM

butchM
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p.2 #7 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

I was a full time PJ for 24 years, over 30 years total counting my freelance experience. I never feel "threatened" by anyone with a camera. I am accustomed to always having a few to several dozen other shooters on hand at events.

I do a lot of event photography and even when I am the "official photographer" I NEVER worry about who else is shooting with whatever equipment as long as they do not interfere with me doing my job. I do my job and let the chips fall where they may. Protectionist attitudes certainly have no place in a free market system, IMHO.

If your work is good enough, it will take care of itself. I don't take jobs where I have to pay a fee or a mandatory donation in order to secure the work. I will support the organizations by placing ads in the programs or pay to display a banner at the venue for the season though. You should give back because it is the right thing to do, not a entry fee to secure a job.

Worrying about some GWC shooting from the sidelines is just a waste of valuable time. In this life you only have so much time, better to enjoy it making great captures instead of worrying about what everyone else is doing.

Dec 11, 2007 at 06:11 PM

Mike Pipes
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p.2 #8 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

The other side of this is that the "other photographer" doesn't have the permission to openly advertise their services. When is the last time you ever heard an announcer say "We have an official photographer here but you can also get photos from some other guy walking around with a camera"? It doesn't happen. As the "official" photographer you get to take advantage of being able to post advertising anywhere and everywhere within the venue, in the registration packets given to participants, maybe your logo even goes on the event posters and flyers. You also get the benefits of announcers reminding people where they can find you, every few minutes. You get to have a booth on-site selling images on the spot while the emotions are still running high. You get the visibility of having the booth along with the impulse sales which is where 90% of the sales are going to happen anyway.
You get access to areas the other guy does not which means you get to shoot images he can not.

What's the "other guy" got going for him? His only way of advertising himself is one by one. He can't sell anything while he's there. How are people going to order photos from his website if he can't even advertise it so they know how to find him. Not to mention if it takes a week or two after an event to get the photos posted, the participants have already forgotten about it and his sales will be slim even if they do find his website.

It seems like the effort to grab just a few more sales is better spent at the event itself when you already have a captive audience and people are already in a spending mood.

Dec 11, 2007 at 06:23 PM

Ghost
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p.2 #9 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

OK after visiting the OP's website and the photos, I can see why the OP felt threatened. I think OP needs to really up the image qualities. Someone mentioned that just because you are there as an "official photographer" doesn't mean you will deliver the goods. If I am looking for pay for photos be it dogs, horse, kids etc. you better be damn sure I want choices!
So if you are good, don't feel threatened as your deliverables will show. If you are not, then being a cry baby and asking for "protection" is just a band-aid solution.

Dec 11, 2007 at 06:48 PM

nathanlake
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p.2 #10 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Ghost wrote:
OK after visiting the OP's website and the photos, I can see why the OP felt threatened. I think OP needs to really up the image qualities. Someone mentioned that just because you are there as an "official photographer" doesn't mean you will deliver the goods. If I am looking for pay for photos be it dogs, horse, kids etc. you better be damn sure I want choices!
So if you are good, don't feel threatened as your deliverables will show. If you are not, then being a cry baby and asking for "protection" is just a band-aid solution.

While I do agree with you that quality will eventually win the day, I don't agree with your cry baby comment. If I am the only recognized official photographer, that is how I expect it to be. There is a real reason that the average guy can't walk into an NFL game, take pictures, and sell them. The owners of the event are protecting both their interests and the interests of the photographer with whom they have a contract.

Every sale that the other guy makes is one that I don't make. And if he is selling $0.19 cent Wal-Mart 4x6 for $1, he is going to get sales even if he is selling crappy pictures.

Dec 11, 2007 at 08:39 PM

BubbaJon
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p.2 #11 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Just to throw this in the mix - then I'll run like hell for the flameproof barrier!

Not so long ago the only people taking pics at youth sports events were - the parents. Then some opportunistic souls realized that since they were on the cutting edge of the digital revolution - hey - I can sell pictures at these events and the instant gratification will surely sell. And it did. Pretty soon the clubs realize - hey - this guy is making money off the kids - where's our slice? Then they decide that they can dictate who gets to take pictures and what their slice of the pie is. So now the club has a "franchise" the shooter has a "locked in" club and their all making money off the kids playing some sports. The club is happy - they get $$$ from the shooters, the shooter figures he will bump his price to account for the club fees and the parents - well - they ain't so happy with $10 4x6's and $20 8x10's and $75 packages for the "team pictures" that the club tries to tell you supports the club and benefits the kids. And - guess what? Now mom & dad can afford some of these pro quality cameras and they remember or rediscover how much fun it is and figure - hey - I'll take pictures of my kid at the games.... and here's where this story takes off.
The moral of the story is - maybe this business model has run the course...
Regards,
Jon

Dec 11, 2007 at 10:00 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.2 #12 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

BubbaJon: I'm don't think that the business model has run it's course. I just don't think shooting youth action shots was ever much of a business model unto itself in the first place (unless your doing crazy huge events like Hammy). For me shooting action shots is only one component of a larger business plan. Not many of us are going to make a living off of $6-$10 4x6 photos after all.

Yes, tournament organizers should enforce the conditions of a signed contract. But realistically, it's kind of hard to expect an organization that is running a two day, 300+ team soccer tournament to run around telling people to stop taking photos. Maybe many of you will expect that, personally I don't. As a result if I'm busy running around preoccupied with everyone who has a camera and trying to determine which of those might be selling or giving images away, then I'm not doing what I was contracted to do. I've shot many high school and college football games including various tournaments. There are typically any number of newspaper shooters, team booster members, and one or two other event photographers on hand along the same sidelines as me. As a result maybe I'm just used to competition but frankly other than to know who is who, I rarely concern myself with what they are doing or feel threatened. I just go into these events knowing what I have to do and working my ass off to deliver the best that I can.

Seriously, as professionals we must take our heads out of the sand and stop this attitude of protectionism. More effort should be spent on building better relationships with parents, coaches, and board members. Bottom line is that digital technology has forever changed the face of photography and we can either continue to try and hold back the flood waters or simply ride the wave. And just for the record, just because you may be taking the most colorful, compositionally perfect images at the peak of action is no guarantee that you will sell those images. As has been previously discussed there really no predicting what parents will buy.

Dec 12, 2007 at 01:49 AM

Chrono1081
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p.2 #13 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Anyway, my biggest gripe about this was the fact that I paid my entry fee to get in, was NEVER on the field, and their was NO signage that warned or prohibited anyone from shooting pictures or video.

I think there should ALWAYS have to be signage....

I was once escorted from a movie theater by police because I bought a bag from ritz camera into a movie theater (mall is attached to the theater and leaving it in a car was not an option). No employees said anything to me, no nothing...just halfway through a movie I was escorted out. I sure didnt see a sign saying "No bags from ritz camera" let alone "no cameras, cell phone cams, videocameras" etc.

and no, I was not filming a movie as I bought a 5D with no lens.

Dec 12, 2007 at 02:22 AM

Rocketball
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p.2 #14 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

cpurves wrote:
Question to Rocketball. If another parent sitting beside you asked you to shoot his daughter and he would pay you for the prints, what would you do?

My answer is, it depends.

If there was an official photographer present, it would still depend.

Many of the companies I've seen sell garbage and charge a small fortune for it, so in that senario, I would probably fill the parents request.

One the other hand, if the company was selling good images at reasonable prices, I would not. When I first started I probably would have, but not now.

I understand the "you have a day job that pays the bills". But in the end, IMO, the buyer wants the picture and really isn't interested in knowing that you have insurance, a good workflow, a marketing plan, etc. It's all a very important part of the business, and I'm trying to discount the necessity for it at all, but I really don't think those thoughts don't go thru the buyers mind.

Dec 12, 2007 at 07:40 AM

Steve Ickes
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p.2 #15 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Rocketball wrote:
My answer is, it depends.

If there was an official photographer present, it would still depend.

Many of the companies I've seen sell garbage and charge a small fortune for it, so in that senario, I would probably fill the parents request.

One the other hand, if the company was selling good images at reasonable prices, I would not. When I first started I probably would have, but not now.

I understand the "you have a day job that pays the bills". But in the end, IMO, the buyer wants the picture and really isn't interested in knowing that you have insurance,...Show more →

Whether or not another photographer's work is garbage or good is subjective. Just check out all the photos posted here for critique. So if you deem his/her work not worthy, you'll shoot and sell the images. But if you determine they're good enough then you'll decline? Wow! First of all how could you possibly judge the quality of the official photographers images? Are you going to go ask to see a few previews on his/her lcd? Not to be insulting BUT do you realize how pompous your statement sounds? What if the shoe was on the other foot. Now you're the official photographer. You think your stuff is great and that you're working hard to get great shots. But suddenly you see a 300mm f2.8 emerge from the crowd of spectators. There's another pro out there and he has decided that the images you sell are crap. He wants the parents to get a better product at a better price, at least that's his opinion. You can't have it both ways. As a photographer, you either respect the fact that someone else has a signed contract or you don't but you cannot have it both ways.

Dec 12, 2007 at 09:50 AM

cpurves
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p.2 #16 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Rocketball wrote:
Many of the companies I've seen sell garbage and charge a small fortune for it, so in that senario, I would probably fill the parents request.

So you would bring your own hotdogs to an event and sell them to others if the hot dogs there were no good according to you.

So Rocketball (Scott) Don't take this message to be aimed specifically at you. This little rant is for all of the "I can shoot anywhere" crowd. ----

I checked your website - you already shoot at events and try to sell them. If you want to do this all the more power to you. BUT - Do it properly, approach the organizers, make your presentation, and quote the job.
The OP was concerned about someone sneaking in and stealing her business. Yes a lot of people with "good equipment" are there for themselves, but in the scenario you described you were there to take photos of everything and try to sell them. It looks like you mislead even us, your peers, about the scenario.

Both of the people I had trouble with this year were sneaky in that they professed to be taking photos for themselves. One for a rag that is only a photo selling site. No proper media organization comes to an event and takes over 400 photos. I did not have a written contract on that one and the organizers were afraid to say anything to him because he was a "press photographer"

The other one was like you - "I am just here to shoot for my friend." It became obvious after an hour that she had a lot of friends some of who needed a card to remember who she was. That show organizer values us as their "official photographer" and asked her to stop. From looking at your site you are the same as them. Yes you paid to get in and you think you have a right to do it. I paid to get in as well, a hellva lot more than you paid. I made my presentation to the club, I showed them I can provide the whole service that they need. I am a business and will be there for the long run. That is why I am protective of my business. I agree with Hammy and the others that our work should shine through and it does, but if I let one in as an interloper then more will come. So if you want to come to a show I am at - pay the vendor fee, advertise at the show. Print flyers to go to all the competitors. Have proper insurance and licenses and let's go head to head.

Please, please shoot on a level playing field. You might actually be devaluing your own work by using these sneaky tactics.

Again Scott, I am not going after you specifically but you are in a group that is affecting our business with your hobby and at times it hits a big nerve with us.

This is a good thread with all points of view being presented. This is my side of the story.

Cheers
Chris
www.photos.now.ca

Dec 12, 2007 at 11:36 AM

Gravitytoy
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p.2 #17 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

It's business guys... You can spend all of your time whining and complaining about other people gathering images from your contracted forum, or you can accept that as many have mentioned, the business proposition of photography is changing. Yes, you may have a legal standpoint to assert your preferences, but these are likely to sit in direct contrast with the interests of those in the stands who like to take pictures, and have a relative or friend in the event.

The losses incurred from another shooter at your event are probably not that significant. As others have mentioned, their lack of marketing, and materials to guide would-be buyers to the cache of images just doesn't exist. So why do many pro shooters get all fired up when some hobbiest shows up with a pro body and white glass?

It's Darwinism at work... you have to adapt. I believe that it is impossible to hold back the tide of recreational shooters at any given event. And yes, you will likely loose a small percentage of sales as a result of his/her presence. But by raising a stink, and insisting that they be removed from the forum, you risk violating the very customer base who ultimately support your work. Is a few lost photo packages or 8x10's worth this risk?

We can't hide behind the skirt of entitlement any longer. The photography business is different today. Competitive elements exist as never before. The goal is to craft a package that creates a niche... and this "niche" must consider the impact of recreational shooters on the sidelines. It's just part of the business these days.

Dec 12, 2007 at 11:54 AM

rlharris
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p.2 #18 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

This thread has morphed from an episode at a dog event into most everything else; especially soccer. Bringing it back to the original venue:

Many (if not all events) held under American Kennel Club rules and regulations have a restriction on photography printed in the documentation for the event (premium list, judging program, and/or catalog).

In the northeast at least, the show-holding club does not get a percentage of the photographer's sales. Nor did the AKC at its recently-held Invitationals (at least one of those photographers was actually paid by the AKC for covering the NOI). Some photographers take out an ad or make a donation to the club and most photographers give the club a set of the most significant photographs.

Dec 12, 2007 at 04:28 PM

Rocketball
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p.2 #19 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Chris,

I'm not sure how you can assume I was misleading anyone by what you see on my website. Just because there are a lot of images from many different teams doesn't mean I was there shooting everything, and selling behind a "pros" back. With exception of the college and pro sports images, everything diplayed on my website was shot with permission and is legit.

I do shoot a lot of events, but I think I do it correctly, with permission, agreements, and even as fund raisers for organizations, and do not shoot when another "pro" is present that's trying to earn a living.

As a matter of fact, the event I was referring too in my original post was from 2005, and those images aren't even on my web site.

Anyway, I understand you were not necessarily focusing your statment totally at me, but you did make assumptions of me that are not factual or correct.

I agree with much of what has been posted. My original intent was to bring another point of view to the dicussion that does not get heard very often.

Call me a hobbist if you wish, but I do respect what you guys (and gals) do, even envy it often. I am not so nieve to think there aren't people out there that will cut your legs out from under you for a few dollars, but that's not me. I can promise you that. One day in the near future I hope to make my living doing this, and I know first hand how small is world really is. I learned at a very early age not to burn any bridges, and I'm not going to start now.

Scott

Dec 12, 2007 at 09:39 PM

John Patrick
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p.2 #20 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

Rocketball wrote:
With exception of the college and pro sports images, everything diplayed on my website was shot with permission and is legit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you have the legal right to sell college or pro sports photos. Sales of college photos may impact eligibility, while sales of pro photos are in direct violation of the rules you agreed to when you went to the game (read the back of your ticket). Every sale of a photo of an image of a pro athlete is restricted by the player's union, their agent, their team, and the league.

If a college represented in your shots were to find out, that would be bad.

If a pro team represented found out, that might be very bad. At the minimum a C&D letter, at the most an audit of your sales and charges filed.

John

Dec 13, 2007 at 01:24 AM

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