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Archive 2007 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos

  
 
searchnk9
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p.1 #1 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Hi all,
I'm looking for advice on how to handle a situation. I was the official photography for a recent national dog sport event. Another photographer apparently shot images from the sidelines and is now advertising his images on some of this sports forums. He is in no way acknowledged by the event organizers. He is selling is images through Printroom. What would you suggest as the best way to handle this?


Thank you,

Beth Bradshaw
Active Dog Photography


Oops, sorry I meant to post this in the Pro Forum, can and administrator move this?

Edited by searchnk9 on Dec 10, 2007 at 01:59 PM GMT



Dec 10, 2007 at 01:57 PM
Focus Locus
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p.1 #2 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


butchM wrote:
"Besides, it can hurt them more with unauthorized sales of images that(sic) {than?} myself."


That sounds like you get paid the same, and/or paid by the event organizer, no matter how many pictures sell or don't sell. Perhaps similar to full time staff editorial assignments, where you are sent to cover an event, and whatever pictures the assigning editor uses or doesn't use, doesn't really matter.

I'll bet that there are some respondents to this thread that have much more at risk. They are the designated photographer, but the event organizer is paying them nothing. In fact, the opposite is true. The designated "pro" photographer actually paid the event organizer to be there, in exchange for special access to the event and the privilege of selling pictures to the participants.

If PWCs are afforded the same access that the pro photographer PAID for, that reduces the potential market the pro was counting on when the payment amount was conceived. If the PWC, while standing in the privileged access area, not only take pictures for themselves, but also take pictures of their friends, neighbors, teammates, and at random, and furthermore give them away, than that further erodes the potential market value of the fee that the pro photographer paid to cover the event.

I've witnessed several situations where the pro photographer paid as much as $2,500 out of pocket, up front, for the rights to photograph a single event with less than half that number of participants. There is most certainly something at stake for that photographer when PWC's are given the same floor/stage/sideline/trackside access that the pro had to pay real money for.

Where there is something at risk, the feeling of being threatened might be more pronounced. Even if the quality of the pro's pics is solid, people by nature would often rather receive something for nothing, and more often these days, with the improvements in technology at a lower price point, the pics from the PWC are good enough, especially when free.

It is difficult for both the pro and the event organiser to boot PWC's off the special access area. No one wants to engender the ill will of the participant's parents. Most people identify with the inalienable right of access parents have with and to their children. Most people stand behind the ideas of freedom. So it is always a tough and uncomfortable call to ask an enthusiastic hobbyist who is also a Dad to leave the sideline and go back into the bleachers, while saying nothing to the other Dads on the same sideline who don't happen to have DSLRs pinned to their faces.

In random answers to this thread, there is a hint of a high falutin' attitude akin to "as a pro, my pics don't stink, therefore no other real pro should worry about who's got a camera nipping at their heels." To that I have to wonder how much experience that pro has in today's climate of event photography.

It cost's big bucks out of pocket up front, not only to pay the event host, but just to show up with shooters and computers. Hotel, airfare, car fare, and food for all the staff, plus their day rates... the event software license fees, web hosting, and office time post processing deliverables... the convention center bill for the power drop used to plug in the computer, plus the phone line drop to process credit cards... it adds up to the kind of costs that threaten bankruptcy to the event photographer, that is quite a different experience than a PJ running in with a back pack, a 70-200, and the surety of a check in the mail by the end of the week.

I can still see why an event photographer would feel threatened. One of the very best photographers that I've ever had the honor of meeting gave up event photography because of the cannibalization that PWC's handing out freebies eroded his market with. He had the official "exclusive" rights to a horse park for equestrian events. His pictures were gorgeous. His reputation for quality was impeccable. His equipment investment was unmatched. His permanent booth onsite was built more attractively than custom homes. His attention to detail in the prints was beyond reproach. His single shot timing of the horse's peak action was uncannily superior to a swiss metronome.

There was no possible room for improvement in his work. But there was plenty of room ringside for the PWCs to shoot. There was plenty of room in his prices to be undercut. There was plenty of room for affordable technology to make "good enough" attainable in average hands. There was yet enough room for him to call it quits... to the loss of everyone, sadly. So the idea that quality rises above all did not in this case manifest itself to be a reliable peg to hang a hat on.





Dec 22, 2007 at 08:25 PM
themdg
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p.1 #3 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Maybe have the event coordinators contact him? I assume they have a stake in this too right? They get a cut of your photo sales?


Dec 10, 2007 at 01:59 PM
searchnk9
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p.1 #4 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I sent an email to the event coordinators a little while ago. I'm waiting to here back from her. Thanks!


Dec 10, 2007 at 02:02 PM
Alistair Watson
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p.1 #5 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


If he was shooting from the sidelines then I would imagine either the sidelines were accessible in which case it is a free for all, or he was given a media pass to access the sidelines by the organisers. If the latter is true then highlighting this to the organisers is the best option if you are official photographer. Either way, I don't think you can stop him selling his images since he has every right to be there. At least this is the way it would work in Europe.



Dec 10, 2007 at 02:07 PM
tracknut
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p.1 #6 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I shoot dog events as well, and this is one of my nightmare scenarios. Fortunately it hasn't happened to me, yet.

When I commit to an event, or when I first make contact with a particular club, I make sure they know that I want to be the *exclusive* photographer at the event. We have a discussion about what that means - and it does not disallow the attendees from shooting their own dogs, etc. If I saw what appeared to be another person shooting the whole event, I would approach the officials right then and there, and request that the person be told to stop shooting. Most the events are held on private property, and they officials should have the right to do this.

But like I say, this hasn't happened to me, so I can't tell you how well it would work.

Dave



Dec 10, 2007 at 04:44 PM
cpurves
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p.1 #7 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


It happened to me last week. First she was shooting only one dog. Then she was shooting all of them. Apparently her friends asked her. The organizer asked her to put her camera away and not to try and sell anything to anyone.
A couple of the friends complained but were told we have an exclusive and the show can't afford to lose us for the other services. It turns out she wasn't selling them she was giving them away. I have a problem with selling against FREE. I can't seem to meet that price point.
I have an exclusive with the clubs and protect it. Our sales for this show were 30% higher than last year and the club loves our customer service and the great feedback they get about us so they protect us.



Dec 10, 2007 at 06:50 PM
Ghost
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p.1 #8 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


You can't compete with Free in terms of pricing because you will LOSE. What you can compete and should do well is professionalism, customer service and consistent quality images. This is what sets you and working photogs apart from Joe Public.


Dec 10, 2007 at 07:15 PM
FSJ_Guy
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p.1 #9 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


You have every right to enforce a No Professional Photography "zone".

Getting "Media" badges will help in keeping everyone off the sidelines.

FWIW, I shot pix of the Purina Top Dog Challenge several years ago just for fun. We actually stumbled on it by accident. Both my wife and I were shooting SLRs. No huge attention-getting L lenses, though. No one hassled us even though we shot the entire event. Maybe because I chatted up some of the more official looking photographers. Everyone was really friendly.



Dec 10, 2007 at 07:44 PM
nefarius
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p.1 #10 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


tracknut has good advice.

You need to be really up-front about your expectations in the beginning. And if they are getting a percentage of your profits, you should have a contract between you stating you are the exclusive shooter. Then, if this happens you need to get the club/officials involved, right then, and have them take care of it, while you continue shooting the event. Also, the mention of press badges is a good idea.

This happened to me at the Miss Cali pageant last year and it was a fiasco, to say the least. Officials lacking in backbone suck!



Dec 10, 2007 at 08:08 PM
Rocketball
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p.1 #11 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Just thought I'd post some thoughts from the other point of view ........

I had a similar experience a few years ago at the PONY Nationals fastpitch softball tourney, but I was NOT the "official photogrpher". I was the "other photographer".

I was one of the Dads watching my daughter play and was shooting her teams games from the sidelines, as I always do. Half way thru their first game, the tourney director approaches me and asked who gave me permission to shoot the game. Well, I said "nobody, I'm here to watch my daughter's team play". He told me I had to stop shooting because they had paid for photographer to be at the tourney.

Long story short...... After a long and heated discussion with the tourney director, I was escorted out of the complex because the photographer said I was impacting his sales. Total BS. After further discussion and negoiation with the tourney director, I agreed to leave my gear in my truck and sit in the stands to watch my daughter's team play. Needless to say, I was watched like a hawk the rest of the week.

Anyway, my biggest gripe about this was the fact that I paid my entry fee to get in, was NEVER on the field, and their was NO signage that warned or prohibited anyone from shooting pictures or video.

I honestly feel like I was targeted by the photographer because of the gear I had, and they felt threatened. There were plenty of other parents there taking pictures of their kids, but no one else was told to stop.

Even though the photographer said they had a contract naming them "the exclusive provider of photographic services" (that was the terminology used by the photographer), that contract does not pertain to me. The contract is between the tourney and the photographer, not me. I paid my entry fee as a spectator, I was in the spectator area, was not selling my images, and there was no paperwork or signage stating I was not allowed to shoot. Like it or not, I was not doing anything illegal. I cooporated with the tourney director because I didn't want to cause any trouble or make a scene. I was there to watch my daughter compete in a national event, so that's what I did.

I guess the reason I'm posting this is just to remind everyone that although you may be the "official photographer" and have a contract, everyone at the event has certain rights, and you need to respect those rights, like it or not, just as we "the other photographers" need to respect your rights.



Dec 11, 2007 at 08:29 AM
shatterkiss
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p.1 #12 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Rocketball wrote:
I guess the reason I'm posting this is just to remind everyone that although you may be the "official photographer" and have a contract, everyone at the event has certain rights, and you need to respect those rights, like it or not, just as we "the other photographers" need to respect your rights.


That's actually not true. As a private event (which it obviously is, as you paid a fee to attend) the event's organizers can certainly force a no-photography rule, selectively or otherwise, without having to post it anywhere. And they can ask you to leave just as easily. It's no different than enforcing the same rule at a concert, in a retail store, in a museum. Having the rule posted at the entrances is certainly a smart move that can aid the enforcement of it, but it's not a necessity. Private property, private event, they can make whatever rules they like as long as those rules don't violate the law.

For the OP, I actually think that asking the organizers to post "no photography" signs at entrances would be a smart move. It's not going to dissuade everyone who would have otherwise pulled out a camera, but it does establish the situation earlier in order to make enforcing it later a little easier.



Dec 11, 2007 at 08:53 AM
rlharris
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p.1 #13 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


The AKC restricts who has access to the rings. Even the official photographers cannot enter the ring while judging is in progress or without the permission of the judge.

Do you use the familiar show identification sign with your name (in addition to the club, date, and win)? If the photographer outside the ring included your sign and copyright notice, you might have a case against him or her.



Dec 11, 2007 at 10:12 AM
Littlebike
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p.1 #14 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


As I understand the law:

If the subject is in or can be viewed from a public location (park, sidewalk, road, etc) you have absolutely every right in the world to photograph it, with the exception of situations where the subject has sequestered themselves for reasons of privacy. (public restrooms are "public" but it is reasonable to expect privacy. Dressing rooms are "public" but it is reasonable to expect privacy.)

So ultimately, if the baseball diamond was part of a public facility then you had the right to shoot there.

So an event that takes place in a public space CAN have an official photographer but the organizer CANNOT limit the freedoms of others to shoot photos themselves. I am certain in the case outlined by "Rocketball" there were many people shooting photos but because "Rocketball" happened to have a professional level DSLR the "official photographer" took offense.



Dec 11, 2007 at 10:39 AM
Rocketball
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p.1 #15 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


One detail of importance I left out was that this tournament was at a gated sports complex that is owned and operated by the local county government.

I understand and agree with the "private property" issue (it's my sandbox and you have to play by my rules). But that particular day, that's not what I was faced with.

It just burns my bunns when I get singled out like that because I have nice equipment and know what I'm doing.

In another instance the following season I ran across the same photography company at another event. I got things straight with them before any trouble started. I told the guy in a joking sort of way that if he felt so threatened by me stealing work from him, maybe he should hire me instead of fight me.



Dec 11, 2007 at 11:10 AM
cpurves
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p.1 #16 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Not to say that Rocketball would, but the problem with some of the fathers watching their kids play and shooting the game is after, when another father sees the OP's product thinks it is too expensive and seeks out the free stuff. There have been lots of posts on forums from people saying that they are so happy that other parents want their stuff, whether for free or paid. And they are proud to supply it.

Question to Rocketball. If another parent sitting beside you asked you to shoot his daughter and he would pay you for the prints, what would you do?

Someone with gear as good as mine and sometimes better brings only that gear to the game. I bring gear, proper workflow, expertise, marketing, proper insurance, business licenses, everything to present a professional product to the organizers. I am at a dog show because of my proper business practices and to provide the value that the show needs to put on a good show. If an interloper comes in and takes some of that business away from me then sooner or later I cannot provide the service economically to the show. Rocketball was probably okay but some other father who looks like him might not be, so yes we are protective. Please try and understand where we are coming from. You have a dayjob that pays the bills. My day job is photographing shows. You might be a heavy duty mechanic. You will not see my trying to undercut your business by fixing someone's truck because it is a hobby of mine and I want to pay for my tools.

I don't mind owners taking pictures at my shows. I strike up a conversation with them and will even help if they want. BUT with last week she went from shooting one dog to shooting all the dogs. She was trying to take my business away from me. So bye bye.

Cheers
Chris
Prince George BC
www.photos-now.ca




Dec 11, 2007 at 11:30 AM
Hammy
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p.1 #17 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


I cover dozens of events each year with about 50,000 competitors - which means up to 100,000 parents - alot of them with cameras - some of them with good cameras.

When I see them...I do nothing.

Sometimes, I'll approach them and ask if they need help with their settings.

Bottom line is that I KNOW that I'm doing it better than any parent can do it. My gear is at least as good as theirs (nobody yet has had gear as good as us) and I have multiple sets of it that get far better coverage - so I am never threatened by that. Too many times, I'll see a parent at our cashier, paying for their order, with a DSLR on their shoulder.

If I see an obvious scab - somebody intentionally taking pictures of alot of teams... then I'll approach the organizer and have them deal with it as they see fit - reminding them, that they get no commission from that guy!

It's easy to see - that if you make a fuss with a parent, or hired gun, then you're going to create a bad rep for yourself. Instead, turn it around, be friends and you'll be amazed at how many of them will talk you up and respect you.

I know for certain, that when I cover my own daughter's competitions, I will have better gear than the hired shooter, I will shoot, and I'll make sure that the 'official' photographer is comfortable with me - I'll even act like I'm representing them and point out their booth.

Anyway, know that you're doing it better than an outsider can do and don't worry about it.

Hammy.



Dec 11, 2007 at 11:42 AM
nanscombe
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p.1 #18 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Hi All,

Rocketball wrote:
I guess the reason I'm posting this is just to remind everyone that although you may be the "official photographer" and have a contract, everyone at the event has certain rights, and you need to respect those rights, like it or not, just as we "the other photographers" need to respect your rights.


As a non-professional photographer ... Hear, Hear!! Well said.

Just because you may earn your living from photography and have an "exclusive contract", this does not give you the right to stop others taking photos for personal use.

If the venue organisers decide to stop you taking photographs it would be preferable for them to let you know beforehand so you don't have to waste your entrance money.

Regards
Nigel



Dec 11, 2007 at 11:53 AM
BubbaJon
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p.1 #19 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


nanscombe wrote:
As a non-professional photographer ... Hear, Hear!! Well said.
Just because you may earn your living from photography and have an "exclusive contract", this does not give you the right to stop others taking photos for personal use.

I think word "rights" unfortunately doesn't apply in most cases. But the respect certainly does. On one hand we all hear of the photographers that share and help their fellow shooters (like here on FM), then we get posts like this where honestly I'm with Hammy - if your trade is built on such a flimsy framework that some GWC causes you stress then you need to look at how you do business.
I've been in the same boat when all I wanted to do was try something new. To have some nitwit get his panties in a wad just because I'm shooting is just stoopid and frankly pisses me off. Come over and talk to me. I guarantee we'll talk shop, talk toys and generally part on good terms after you find out I'm just noodling around. I always feel pretty darned good after somebody fills me in on little details of their "business" and generally fosters a sense of camaraderie. Am I out for their business? Probably not.
I'll tell you straight how I see it. The guys who really know what they're doing don't worry about little crap like this.
My 2 centavos - worth as usual less than 2 cents...
Jon



Dec 11, 2007 at 01:14 PM
CTYankee
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p.1 #20 · Unoffical Photographer selling event photos


Rocketball wrote:
I guess the reason I'm posting this is just to remind everyone that although you may be the "official photographer" and have a contract, everyone at the event has certain rights, and you need to respect those rights, like it or not, just as we "the other photographers" need to respect your rights.


The tournament may have the right to limit photography by other people...signs are not needed. In an case where they need to enforce it they can verbally request you to stop...as they did. My contracts often have such verbiage stating that I will be the only photographer and 'professional' equipment may not be used by others. Do I enforce it....no. Mom's with a 70-200 are not a threat to me. Someone with a 400 2.8 may get asked to put it away.

You're rights are to get entry when you pay for entry...no more, no less. Can you bring in dozens of hot dogs and give them away for free? Probably not. The event is a commercial venture and the organizers make rules and need to enforce them in the best interest of their vendors if there is to be another event like it.



Dec 11, 2007 at 01:14 PM
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