Okay, let's play an example here to see if you people can get the point....
In the Buy/Sale area, there is a specific rule that forbids people being 'Price Police.' The reason is that a person that owns a piece of property has the right to ask whatever they want for the item. If that price is too close to retail, or just priced wrong doesn't matter. They have a right to ask what they want. If someone chooses to buy the item for that, should it matter to the others that frequent the forum that the buyer is paying more than they think they should? No!
As it relates to this situation, the business owner has the right to offer a position and rate as they see fit. I'm sure no one here knows all of the overhead this person has taken on to get the job, produce the packages, their cost at their lab, or what they want to make off the job. As such, it's not fair to have people sitting back trying to claim that a particular offer/job is unjust. Perhaps if he doesn't get any takers at $16 he will raise it to $20....who knows?
The question was raised as to my willingness to work for $32 dollars an hour and the answer is YES. After all, doesn't an intern work for less in exchange for the experience and reference? Let's start paying all of them since the companies they work for are making LOADS of money off them being there for 40 HOURS a week (sometime)?
For me, I've always admired the work of Matthew Jordan Smith. If he contacted me and invited me to come along and shoot with him, I would do so at my cost. Why? Because there's more to learning this business and getting ahead than what you leave with at the end of the day.
By the way, I give time to local schools and talk about photography for FREE. I also donate my services to a local youth group to encourage young people for FREE no matter where they have their events.
So, in the end, if you think this issue is about $32 dollars, you've already missed the point of what I'm saying. This is about principle and a business owner's ability to run his/her own business. If you have a problem with that, get your own contracts, offer better photography, pay better wages, and be happy. Otherwise, just get off the high-horse and do something positive with your time and energies.
This is called the "Pro" forum for a reason. It is 99% about the business of photography.
One of the biggest tasks is helping folks understand their cost of doing business, and how to price accordingly. Many do not have a cliue about the true CODB.
The camera I use, a 1DsII, rents for $250 a day. No way I am going to bring my self *and* my camera for less than the camera gets on it's own. I might as well stay home and rent it out. My lighting kit rents at $300 a day.
The CODB is different for others. But most drastically underestimate their own true CODB.
I don't need lectures on economics, and I certainly don't need capalist propaganda. I have an MBA. I used to have 31 employees and an annual budget of $5 million. I helped start a company that we grew to $1 billion in business and 600 employees in 5 years.
I pay assistants who haul gear a minimum of $200 a day - no picture taking. Models usually get $50 an hour, as do make-up artists. An average shoot costs about $1,000, even for my own portfolio.
That is what my world looks like. FWIW. I really don't care what others do, but you have to wonder ....
There's nothing to wonder about, Murph. You make very good points and I'm not at odds with any of them. For your setup, you price accordingly and I'm sure that the clients you service aren't based on mom's spending $20 dollars for a memory mate and 5x7 print at the end of the day.
The problem I'm having here is that there's much more to doing business than what you pay a shooter for doing a basic job. Like anything else, the job and the skill level needed to perform it have to be considered. I wouldn't consider paying a wedding photographer the same as I would the person that shoots at my church directory jobs. Why? Because they require different levels of experience and skill.
With these league jobs, the leagues/schools want kick-backs and the person holding the contract isn't guaranteed anything with regard to sales. When I did teams, I would shoot two teams of the same size and get very different results. One team would come in at $600 dollars while the next team would barely break $200.
One of the issues that was raised here was the length of time the person would be working. For these shoots, I would only be there around 30 minutes to an hour.
griffitg wrote:
I'm sure that the clients you service aren't based on mom's spending $20 dollars for a memory mate and 5x7 print at the end of the day.
Unfortunately even the mags are getting to that level!
I didn't mean my post quite so directly. Just that we all have our own perspective, and the high end is more common in this forum.
It is funny reading the threads on the 1Ds3, etc., - how folks latch on to one small point that pertains to how they work - needing manual focus, never shooting above ISO 100 , etc. - and can't understand any other perspective.
A bit of that here too I will admit - just trying to share why.
I think the issue here is that the people who are arguing for the $16/hr, are more likely justifying their own business practices to make themselves feel better.
I am a BUSINESS PERSON that sales photography services and products.
I am NOT a PHOTOGRAPHER that's in business.
Shooting groups of people - portraits, weddings, family reunions, sports photos, corporate parties, etc. isn't the only way to make money. I am not trying to slight the skills of those who are actually good at what they do, but I question why a photographer would choose to potentially ruin a client relationship by sending an unknown to shoot alone, even for a couple of hours. Would you offer $16 per hour to anyone with a camera answering an ad to shoot a two hour architectural assignment, or a commercial shoot for a large company? Of course not because those areas of expertise are usually beyond the scope of a disposable photographer.
Good point, Barry. I think there are different levels of skill required for different types of work. For some types, I think $16 an hour is the correct wage. For others, I think the rate should be many times more.
My lighting kit rents at $300 a day.