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Archive 2003 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever

  
 
Canonizer
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p.1 #1 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


I don't mean to boast, but point your browser to:
http://www.pbase.com/image/19039630

How I wish I could include this image in Canon's glossy 10D brochure, or the Canon magazine ads. I suppose we could start a competition ... anybody got one better, uhh ... I mean worse?

Amazing what you can get from Canon for only $1,500 or so.

Well, my POS goes off to Canon USA tomorrow. Can't wait for its return, when I will duplicate this shot, and post the results for y'all.

it's all on my head ... it's all on my head ... it's all on my head ...






Jul 14, 2003 at 05:30 PM
Ron Warren
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p.1 #2 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Already seen it sorry.
Nice plant. The sheriff burned mine.



Jul 14, 2003 at 05:38 PM
Knocka
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p.1 #3 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Looks like the camera is high.


Jul 14, 2003 at 05:41 PM
Marc Vasaturo
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p.1 #4 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


How do you show the screen on your photo in BB. Thanks: Marc


Jul 14, 2003 at 05:59 PM
OliverSilk
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p.1 #5 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


After speaking w/Canonizer I shot these with my 10D mounted on a tripod. I've also included the EXIF information for your review. I'm not an expert by far but in my 3 years of Professional shooting, these shots should not have come out this way.

Examples: http://topshelfimpressions.com/main_10D.htm

Your comments Plz!



Jul 14, 2003 at 06:05 PM
rdonson
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p.1 #6 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Marc Vasaturo wrote:
How do you show the screen on your photo in BB. Thanks: Marc


Marc, right mouse click on your image in BB and then select "Show Focus Points".

-or-

on the menu bar select "View" then select "Show Focus Points"



Jul 14, 2003 at 06:07 PM
rdonson
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p.1 #7 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Canonizer's image sure looks like a problem with the camera/lens. It can't be explained by the following info provided by Chuck Westfall over in Rob Galbraith's site.

10D AF Coverage

Others might want to check out the info Chuck is providing there so that you can understand more fully how the AF on the 10D actually works. Then you can make your determination if you need to send the camera back to Canon for repair.




Jul 14, 2003 at 06:15 PM
Marc Vasaturo
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p.1 #8 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Thanks Ron, I just did it and the focus point is off on almost all of my pic's. If you recompose your shot it's going to be off.


Jul 14, 2003 at 06:31 PM
DavidP
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p.1 #9 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Gee, AF complaints about the 10D, and nobody accuses anybody of "user error". Amazing.

I guess that means it's OK for me to say "man, that sucks -- send it in to Canon to fix" and nobody will accuse me of having an agenda?



Jul 14, 2003 at 06:59 PM
christo™
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p.1 #10 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Hi, Canonizer: It does look like your AF just plain missed on that one. It appears that you are shooting using the all-points AF. I totally abandoned that within a month of shooting the 10D -- seems pretty much like a guaranteed OOF generating feature to me. I know, I know, "Canon advertises....", "Canon brochures state....", "$1500 is a lot for a digital Rebel", etc. But, _peace_ , bro' -- we're on the same side. Fact is that shooting with that kind of DOF (300mm at 5 feet or so) is just plain beyond the reliability of the 10D AF -- I don't care how you interpret the Canon marketing literature. I've found that using the center AF point only, and judging the AF with my eyes makes all the difference in the world.

On the other hand, that other post with the weird bands in the bokeh makes me think that maybe your 10D is just completely FUBAR -- I'd highly recommend a friendly chat with Canon customer service. There have been many posts on this forum where people actually found a contact within that massive corporation that was helpful.




Jul 14, 2003 at 07:06 PM
lziering
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p.1 #11 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


These samples look to me like you guys are letting the camera select the focus point rather than selecting the center point for your test. Seems like a recipe for trouble.


Jul 14, 2003 at 07:12 PM
wmalvey
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p.1 #12 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


christo™ wrote:
But, _peace_ , bro' -- we're on the same side. Fact is that shooting with that kind of DOF (300mm at 5 feet or so) is just plain beyond the reliability of the 10D AF -- I don't care how you interpret the Canon marketing literature.


Excellent point. I calculated the DOF on this shot at 0.23 inches. Yes, 1/4 of an inch. Something to consider as we all pound Canon for producing such a POS. javascript:void(0);




Jul 14, 2003 at 07:15 PM
DavidP
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p.1 #13 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


The thing is, Canon says that the accuracy of the 10D AF is +/- 1 DOF (which seems far too large for my tastes in the first place).

So why can't it focus to that accuracy? Or maybe this is "just squeaking by" into acceptability? I don't think so.



Jul 14, 2003 at 07:21 PM
CoolGeorge
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p.1 #14 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


BB can be very misleading in that when you have it show which AF box was used it is not able to tell you where you had the camera pointed when you "half pressed" the shutter button. Once you half press the AF is locked and that setting remains in effect until you press the shutter all the way down or release it and reset the AF. The AF will not "adjust" when you recompose if you are using the "one shot" mode.


Jul 14, 2003 at 07:41 PM
Canonizer
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p.1 #15 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Hi Christo,

I regret not mentioning that I did try the option of explicitly using the center AF sensor, in fact on a whole series of a bird shoot. I got roughly the same results, maybe 50% in focus. I also failed to mention that if I step back a decade and switch the AF off, I can manually focus and get roughly 80% in focus. Add to that that I have 20/200 vision, wear bifocals, and have diabetes (which causes further vision blurring at times). I can readily outperform the 10D's AF. Now that is pretty sad.

A really interesting point that seems to go unaddressed is my comment (and many others as you know) about how I have been shooting Canon AF cameras since they first came out. I know full well what to expect as reasonable. I have taken a couple thousand shots of that particular bird feeder platform over the years, from the same place, with Nikon 35mm AF SLRs (8008s, N80), Nikon digital P&S (CP 995), Canon 35mm AF SLRs (Rebel G, Rebel 2000, Elan II, EOS 3) and now the 10D. I have a large book of the prints this gear has produced. So my wife and I went through this book again, and at least 95% of the images produced without the 10D are in focus. I have many enlarged prints, to 16x20, from the non-10D gear, so I can also see quite a bit of detail. AF is right on.

Then we examine the 10D's images, and we drop drastically downward. The difference is demonstrably obvious. My 10D can't come close to even the Rebel G's AF performance, can't come close to my near-sighted, bifocaled, diabetic eyeballs.

Yes, I realize we are on the same side. I don't mean to deflect my anger toward Canon onto you or others. But I won't stand by (and allow others to stand by) and be audience to a thousand ridiculous accusers (present company excluded) who are hopeless Canon zombies (I rate zombies as even more zealous than zealots).

The one criticism that I have for myself is that I have not yet given Canon a chance to resolve this obvious problem. As of tomorrow that changes -- I just boxed my POS up and tomorrow I'll hand it over to UPS. I did talk to Canon tech support, who was patently polite and said to ship it in. I was ever thankful that he did not request for me to send all my lenses in. Again I say, the fact the Canon has requested others to send in their lenses, is the foremost evidence that Canon is desperately avoiding responsibility for an inferior product.

Thank you for your posts, here and elsewhere. They've been some of the more thoughtful and helpful.



Jul 14, 2003 at 07:46 PM
rlcramer
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p.1 #16 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Canonizer, I thought I had good examples, but you blow mine away by a long shot.


Jul 14, 2003 at 07:48 PM
Canonizer
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p.1 #17 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Thanks, Bobby. Coming from you, that's a real compliment. I admit to being a bit proud of it

I had the dealer that sold me the camera look at it too. He was equally impressed. He offered to replace the camera with a new one (mine is two months old now), but lo and behold I had attached one of those LCD protectors to it, and it had to be "as new" to return it to him directly. He says Canon is a real stickler about giving him a credit.

So what's the latest on your 10D? Still en route to NJ?

Would you mind if I start a betting pool on whether the problem is fixed? Sorry, just an attempt to add humor to this mess.

Please let us know what happens with your 10D after its voyage to Jamesburg.



Jul 14, 2003 at 08:02 PM
GLGamble
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p.1 #18 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Canonizer, I agree that you should ship that sucker back to Canon - if not for the AF issue then for the other problem you experienced.

OliverSilk, take this with a grain of salt as I am not a professional, don't have a 10D, and am certainly not an AF expert. But I don't know if your problem appears to be as bad. Considering that (1) you took this shot from above the subject (and the "focus plane" was tilted down) and (2) the DoF was probably only an inch or two, I'm not sure that your results were so bad. (Also, keep in mind that the AF system will lock onto objects slightly outside the sensor boxes in the viewfinder.) What is surprising to me is that this slight front-focusing is repeated in all three shots. Have you noticed the same issue in "real world" shooting?



Jul 14, 2003 at 10:10 PM
christo™
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p.1 #19 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


Well, Canonizer, with all the explanations you've added, it seems pretty clear to me that you got a lemon. After reading all sorts of posts on the topic, it seems pretty clear that Canon let a number of 10D's go with less than par calibration on the AF. I remember early on when Larry Mowry was blasting the 10D really badly as he got a lemon, but his got fixed (or replaced, I forget), and he is now quite happy. I do know for a fact that the AF on my 10D is not in the same class as my EOS 3, but I don't consider it "defective" per se, just somewhat lame, as I don't have consistent front or back focus -- it seems happy to slop all over the place, well within DOF as defined standardly in the industry, which dates back to positively antique film technology and includes areas that appear on-screen, in digital photographs, to be quite OOF.

If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only one getting QC defects, that's for sure. I'm lucky with the 10D, but the little battery charger that came with it went POOF in 2 months flat (I've got to get around to getting that RMA'd), and it took me nearly a month from purchase and lots of time on hold waiting for a human to answer at Epson after entering a zillion really annoying and totally non-productive key presses at silly voice prompts, plus plenty of wasted time boxing printers and arranging for UPS to get an Epson 2200 that printed and didn't let gravity pull parts off as they kept shipping me broken replacements. Even after all that, I ended up settling for a printer with a big crack in the paper tray because everything else was cherry and I was sick of the whole mess.

Anybody telling you it's all in your mind is crazy, but you have to admit that a lot of people post one or a few shots with dubious subjects for AF test, and for some reason, people seem to use long lenses with large aperture for the testing, and don't give much background info. People are posting with a lot of different experience levels, and clearly many of them upgraded to L class large aperture lenses for the first time along with the 10D. I don't care what AF system you have, when you're shooting with a 1 inch DOF, getting the subject centered in it is part luck just relying on AF. Also, I think people expect the best with the 10D due to the $1500 price tag, and it might not be obvious to many that a $600 EOS 3 film body has a much better AF system. I know I was a bit dismayed when I got my 10D and felt "gee, back to the Rebel AF again".

I do hope you have some luck with returning your 10D. Some people haven't been too happy with the results -- hopefully the technicians have had time to learn more about how to re-calibrate the things right. Just don't expect it to come back working like the AF on an EOS 3! It would drive me nuts, but the full time MF ring on the L lenses, the fast AF lock / re-lock cycle time, and the low price on muffed shots all do a lot to make up for the lesser AF system to me. I also really like the viewfinder adjustability. I too have eyes that are much less than perfect, and the 10D is the best I've had for clarity. It not only has an adjustable diopter, but you can also buy diopter eyepieces, so it has the largest total diopter adjustment range of any camera I've ever had. I also really like the eyepiece extender EP-EX15. I hate wearing my glasses while shooting, and am happier with the 10D viewfinder as customized than I've been with any other camera's viewfinder (just wish it was bigger).



Jul 15, 2003 at 01:06 AM
fred_jb
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p.1 #20 · Best 10D Bad AF Example Ever


This looks just like the problem I had. However, I think with at least some of these problems we may be slating the AF system unnecessarily. It could just be a physical tolerances issue.

Also, people talking about DOF as if it is a measurable optical phenomenon, rather than a rather abitrary convention doesn't help either. A lens system focuses in one plane, and one plane only (ignoring distortion). We just need some way of defining how close AF gets to the intended plane. I'm not sure that relating focus accuracy to so-called depth of field as currently defined is a very satisfactory method - but that is a different discussion.

Anyway consider this scenario:

The AF system gets focus perfectly accurately using the AF point indicated, but there is a physical misalignment between AF sensor and CMOS sensor such that the sensor is not exactly where it should be, and therefore at the sensor a different part of the image is actually sharpest.

This would be confirmed if very careful manual focusing was seen to agree with the AF system - i.e. you get a beep and green LED confirmation at your best MF focus point, yet the results recorded by the sensor are equally OOF for the point of focus for both MF and AF. This is exactly what happened with my camera.

I can see how minor tweaking to optimise AF wrt to sensor position could be done in s/w , but I don't see how more serious physical misalignment between these two systems could be compensated for by software based calibration. Sure, in that case the AF system could be set to give the lens a big enough focus offset to compensate for a seriously out of tolerance light path to the CMOS sensor, but surely this would then cause the viewfinder image to appear noticeably OOF at the point of focus, instead of the sensor image which would now be correct?

That would also mean that optimum MF focus would no longer agree with AF, and with MF you would still get an OOF image at the sensor (at least OOF for the point you were trying to MF on), because a lens focusing offset could by definition not be applied in an MF situation. In other words even with perfect eyesight and a great viewfinder, MF can only be as good as the physical tolerances of the camera will allow.

Stangely enough, my 10D exhibited the this behavior after a repair attempt - i.e. MF now disagreed with AF. However it appeared that the "calibration" had somehow favoured MF, as it was now spot-on, whereas AF was actually FFing even worse, so much so that it actually appeared clearly (!) OOF in the viewfinder. Originally MF and AF had agreed, and both had been FFing by about the same amount.

Even stranger, my "repaired" camera reverted back to its original behaviour after one day. It has since been replaced.

There is probably more than one type of focus problem, and a lot more to all of them than we are ever going to understand, unless Canon choose to tell us!

Fred



Jul 15, 2003 at 06:43 AM
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