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Archive 2006 · Microdrives and battery drain

  
 
csebasti
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p.1 #1 · Microdrives and battery drain


I've been considering buying a microdrive for use in a 350D since the Hitachi drives have rebates now, and they're a great value.

I read some reviews of them that made reference to decreased battery life in the camera due to the spinning drive. I couldn't find any details though, and am not sure if its worth worrying about. My concern was that the 350D has a fairly low capacity battery (compared to my 20D with Sterligtek batteries) and the microdrive may decrease the number of shots. Any truth to this?



Jan 01, 2006 at 01:42 PM
gasrocks
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p.1 #2 · Microdrives and battery drain


Do not get/use Microdrives. They have moving parts inside = they will wear out, cannot be dropped, etc.


Jan 01, 2006 at 02:02 PM
csebasti
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p.1 #3 · Microdrives and battery drain


Not to sound rude, but that wasn't my question. I'm well aware of the debate over microdrives. I've read plenty of "they suck! Never use them!" and "I've had over 40,000 photos go through mine, and no problems." I'm not trying to start that debate again.

My only question here is how much do they affect battery life.



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:08 PM
stephenj
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p.1 #4 · Microdrives and battery drain


gasrocks wrote:
Do not get/use Microdrives. They have moving parts inside = they will wear out, cannot be dropped, etc.


Had several of different MB's (ibm & Hitachi) over the years and never ever had an issue, and just ordered a Hitachi 6g for the 5d.

Did not notice any difference in battery life compared with CF

I



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:11 PM
lmitch6
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p.1 #5 · Microdrives and battery drain


Csebasti,

I've got one on order now, and have done a fair amount of digging around. Now what I've found is anectdotal, but those who have used microdrives a great deal notice a negligible impact on battery life, I remember reading a poster somewhere who rated it at 1-3%. So its' not like your battery life will be cut in half as a result. I should have mine on Tuesday, so I'll do some tests to give you a better feel for it.

The rest of the information seems to be repeating urban legends about them, which as evidenced by those who've used them extensively are merely legends.

Hope this helps!



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:15 PM
csebasti
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p.1 #6 · Microdrives and battery drain


stephenj wrote:
Did not notice any difference in battery life compared with CF


Thanks for the info.



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:20 PM
csebasti
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p.1 #7 · Microdrives and battery drain


lmitch6 wrote:
Csebasti,

I've got one on order now, and have done a fair amount of digging around. Now what I've found is anectdotal, but those who have used microdrives a great deal notice a negligible impact on battery life, I remember reading a poster somewhere who rated it at 1-3%. So its' not like your battery life will be cut in half as a result. I should have mine on Tuesday, so I'll do some tests to give you a better feel for it.

The rest of the information seems to be repeating urban legends about them, which as evidenced by those who've
...Show more


Thanks, that helps a lot. That's the kind of info I was looking for. Sounds like its not a problem.



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:22 PM
JimboCin
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p.1 #8 · Microdrives and battery drain


I have Hitachi 6GB as do many others (I also have a 2GB SanDisk Extreme III). No problems with the Hitachi, or with the SanDisk for that matter. Have dropped the Hitachi, as many have, with no problems. Just saw someone note they ran their Hitachi through the washing machine with no problem (not recommended ;-) Have heard of others doing this with solid state cards, but this is a first for a microdrive.

Drops / Shocks
The Lexar is specified at 50 Gs for 11 thousandths of a second (shock load). Vibration is specified as 15Gs peak to peak.

Hitachi spec is 200 G's for 2 thousandths of a second (a shock) while operating, 2000 G's for 1 thousandth of a second non-operating (a little hard to directly compare these apples and oranges specifications between the Lexar and Hitachi). The only way I would think a card could receive a 200 G shock while operating is if you dropped the camera from a distance onto a hard surface while it was reading or more likely writing. Small chance, and then the damage to the card would be the least of your concerns. 2000 G's non-operating: don't know for sure, but bet short of throwing the card against a hard surface this would be pretty hard to achieve. To achieve this specification the Hitachi contains a “locking latch” that holds the read/write head actuator in a locked position when the unit is non-powered.

Vibration
The Hitachi vibration spec is considerately lower than the Lexar, so don’t place a Hitachi on your washing machine while in your camera and while writing ;-0
Because I know that vibration can crack solder joints in printed circuit boards, integrated circuits and other components inside of my camera, I am careful where I put my camera in my car when transporting it. This is independent of the type of card that I have in my camera. Putting a camera of any sort over the rear axel in the bed of a pick-up truck is not a good practice for any piece of precision equipment.

Temperatures and Humidity Specs
Lexar: 0 to 60 degrees C operating, -20 to 85 degrees C non-operating, 5 to 96% relative humidity.
Hitachi: 0 to 70 degrees C and 8 to 90% RH operating, -40 to 70 degrees C and 5 to 95% RH non-operating.
I have seen notes somewhere about not operating the Hitachi above 10,000 feet (did not see that noted on the Hitachi spec sheet), but I have also read about people using it above this altitude with no ill effects. Not a real common issue.

Ruggedness and Reliability
Initial IBM cards did suffer from reliability issues. Hitachi has made many improvements. They have increased the thickness of the rubber wall (“shock absorbers”) around the drive mechanism and have moved the disk itself to the pin end of the card so that it runs less of a risk of being squeezed by the user when removed from the camera (the most common cause of Microdrive failure, according to Hitachi). Overall robustness of many of the drives components has also been increased. The 2GB and 4GB models (I guess the 6 and 8 also) incorporate a 1-2mm thick plastic surround for greater resistance to damage when dropped. The head, and the arm holding it, have also been redesigned.

Read / Write Reliability
The reliability rate on the Hitachi is specified as 300,000 load/unload cycles. I am not sure, but I think this means 300,000 reads/write cycles, which I guess would be about 300,000 photos (average reliability). Someone more familiar with this specification may have a better perspective here.
I don’t see reliability data on the Lexar data sheets, but if one were to think “its solid state so it will not fail” they most likely do not have a background in solid state electronics reliability. For just a peak into what can go wrong in such a solid state card see:
http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/cfcompare/
Many of the solid state memories use Samsung memory chips, some of which are rated at 100,000 program / erase cycles: (http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/NANDFlash/SLC_LargeBlock/16Gbit/K9WAG08U1M/ds_k9xxg08uxm_rev10.pdf ). No idea how this relates to the Hitachi spec.

Speed
If you want to know the speed, read:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007
A 4GB Hitachi is 2.025 MB/sec, 1GB WA Lexar 80x first edition 4.009, second edition 4.322 (D70 writing RAW [NEF]).

Camera Battery Life
The issue about camera battery life is interesting. It will take more energy to get a hard drive to spin up and operate, as it is an electromechanical device. Hitachi draws 230 mA at 3.3 volts operating, 13 mA at 3.3 volts standby; whereas a Lexar takes 50 mA at 3.3 volts when reading or writing, and nothing at other times. In any case, in my Canon 20D the batteries seem to last long enough to satisfy me when I am using the Hitachi. I should do a comparison of this sometime.

My Perspective
If I were taking photos for NASA of a space shuttle launch and I had government funds, I certainly would use the best solid state memory card I could find. For me, taking photos of my family, the risk with the Hitachi is one I don’t even think twice about. The speed issue for the Hitachi is not an issue for me, but if you take a lot of sports burst photos you may have a different need than I do.

I guess it comes down to what you are doing with the camera. How important is the difference between a very minor risk to you (hard drives) versus an extremely minor risk (solid state memory), and how significant is the cost difference is to you? I can tell you that many of us have decided the Hitachi is fine for our needs. You may decide differently for yourself – that is fine.



Regards,

JimR

PS: If you plan to wash your card in a washing machine or you regularly drop you camera onto a hard surface I definitely would get a solid state card.




Jan 01, 2006 at 02:30 PM
csebasti
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p.1 #9 · Microdrives and battery drain


JimR - Wow, that's a lot of good info there. Although I specifically did not want to get into the debate over the CF vs MD reliability, its noice to see someone back up their opinion with some good hard numbers.

I've never used a MD, but I have no doubts they would be fine for my use or my girlfriend's use. As far as battery life, sounds like the consesnus is that its not an issue.

I found this comment interesting:
"I have seen notes somewhere about not operating the Hitachi above 10,000 feet (did not see that noted on the Hitachi spec sheet), but I have also read about people using it above this altitude with no ill effects. Not a real common issue."
I've read a little about people suggesting there are problems with CF and cameras in general at high altitudes. I've regularly taken my 20D above 14,000 ft with no problems, and will soon be climbing to 19,000 ft and don't expect any problems.

Anyway, thanks for the nice consolidated data dump. Interesting read...



Jan 01, 2006 at 02:44 PM
BigDog9721
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p.1 #10 · Microdrives and battery drain


why micro drive vs flash? is it speed for lots of multiple pictures?


Jan 01, 2006 at 03:06 PM
Mike K
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p.1 #11 · Microdrives and battery drain


JimboCin wrote:
Just saw someone note they ran their Hitachi through the washing machine with no problem (not recommended ;-) Have heard of others doing this with solid state cards, but this is a first for a microdrive.


I have been using Microdrives since 2000 with no problems. The added battery drain is inconsequential.

As far as washing them, its certainly not recomendded as they are open to the atmosphere, put as early as 2001 there was a report of them being successfully run through the washing/drying machine.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1023&message=1052922

Mike K



Jan 01, 2006 at 05:55 PM
DaveEP
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p.1 #12 · Microdrives and battery drain


BigDog9721 wrote:
why micro drive vs flash? is it speed for lots of multiple pictures?


Microdrives are not usually as fast as CF on cameras that can read/write the faster speeds. The Microdrives positively crawl in my 1D2 and 1Ds2 compared to Lexar 80x flash.

Also, while my comments will surely be dissmissed as anecdotal, because they always are, I have had two Microdrives, and both failed. I did not mistreat them either.

I have a lot of CF, and only had one bad block on one (cheap) card.

Go on, start the flaming now, but I can only tell you what I know from experience and will not buy another one. I cannot afford to lose shots. However, if you feel comfortable with buying them I am not going to recommend that you don't. It's a personal decision. I buy Lexar, other people won't buy Lexar and only buy Sandisk. It's personal choice and we are all entitled to use our own money any way we want. If you want MDs.... go buy them and be happy. My experience could be a total 'one off'.

Having said that - I did lose some shots from the Lexar 80X problems in the summer. Lexar speedily replaced those cards. Hitachi did not want anything to do with the failed MDs.

As for battery life, I did not notice any difference, so can only assume that it is small (in the low percentages) if any.



Jan 01, 2006 at 06:00 PM
DigiSLR
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p.1 #13 · Microdrives and battery drain


For what its worth, the 6 Gig Hitachi is actually faster than the 4 Gig. In addition you can recognize up to a 5 percent increase of write speed by formating the MD in a computer with 32k clusters as opposed to the cameras 4k clusters.




Jan 01, 2006 at 08:21 PM
JimboCin
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p.1 #14 · Microdrives and battery drain


BigDog9721 wrote:
why micro drive vs flash? is it speed for lots of multiple pictures?

Basically the only reason to use the Microdrives is cost. Its generally significantly cheaper per MB than solid state cards. Other than this, most aspects of a microdrive are parity or less than solid state memory. Microdrives are, as DaveEP notes, slower than solid state memory cards.

JimR



Jan 01, 2006 at 09:58 PM
Woolburr
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p.1 #15 · Microdrives and battery drain


I have frequently shot 800-1200 images a day at NASCAR events while using 4 gig Microdrives and a set of fully charged BP-511's. Temperature seems to have more effect on the battery life than the type of media does. On a 30 degree day at Rockingham a while back, I only got 214 images on two fully charged batteries and 1 gig CF cards.


Jan 01, 2006 at 11:36 PM
JimboCin
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p.1 #16 · Microdrives and battery drain


DaveEP:

Thanks for the very nice post!

I agree with you on numerous items.

First, in reference to card speed. As shown on the Rob Galbraith site, the Microdrive is far from the fastest card out there. I would suggest everyone should look at the RG site, think about what their photographic application requirements are (is speed an important aspect for the type of shooting you do?), and consider card speed appropriately.

Second, if I had your experience where two CF Microdrives had failed on me, I would be pretty negative on the technology also – that is pretty understandable. I fortunately have not suffered any such failures to date (finding wood to knock on right now ;-) I know many others who share my opinion, and many others who share yours.
One thing I am interested in – Hitachi has made improvements in the robustness of their cards. Were your Microdrives relatively recent Hitachi’s, or older ones?

Third, you and I totally agree that it is a personal decision that each person needs to make, considering the various trade-offs of cost, quality, speed, reliability, etc.

Fourth, we both are in total agreement – if a photo is of vital importance to you, then solid state memory cards are better than hard-drive-based Microdrives (cost versus risk decision that each individual needs to make for their own situation).

For me, I have decided to put a foot into each camp. For my general photography, where I want the ability to be able to store a lot of photos and where top speed is not important I will be using the latest Hitachi Microdrives. I personally am not that concerned about Microdrive reliability from what I have read and based on my personal experience to date, but I understand that others may feel differently based on their personal experience or what they have read or heard. Where speed is of utmost importance to me I will be using SanDisk Extreme III cards (generally 2GB cards now). If utmost reliability is important to me (that shot that I would kill myself over if I lost) I will use the SanDisk Extreme III. If others feel something else is “best” for them that is fine with me.

I do feel that SanDisk are the best cards for use with the Canon, if reliability is the most important feature. Why do I feel this way? Various reasons. First, it appears that Canon is more closely aligned with SanDisk, Nikon with Canon. If you read the magazines, you will more often than not see Canon adds showing SanDisk, Nikon with Lexar. I just attended a Nikon seminar and they were heavily showing Lexar, with no note of SanDisk. It appears from what I have read that these paired companies share data more closely, and I have got to believe that offers an advantage to the respective paired companies.

Second, we all have heard about the issues that Lexar had with Canon recently: “Disappearance of images when using Lexar Compact Flash Cards”
Affected Products (CF card):
Lexar Professional 80x-speed Compact Flash cards
Problem:
Captured images on some Lexar CompactFlash cards can be lost when used with the Canon cameras listed above. Working together, Lexar and Canon have investigated the cause and confirmed that the problem occurs in extremely rare instances when the products above are used together.
Countermeasure:
Lexar will offer a free firmware update incorporating the correction of this problem by the end of May 2005 for Lexar Professional Series 80x CompactFlash card customers using the affected Canon cameras.
(reference: Canon web site: http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=PgComSmModDisplayAct&keycode=2112&fcategoryid=215&modelid=10598
Lexar web site: http://www.lexar.com/support/cust_advisory.html)

Third, my reading of posts by others on FM and other sites would appear to indicate that others have had fewer problems with their Canon’s while using SanDisk’s than any other brand. Your reading of these “tea leaves” may be different than mine. And I do agree with you that this is all anecdotal data. Wouldn’t it be great if each card manufacturer posted their actual card return data – you know they have it (yea, I know – this is just not going to happen).

Forth, it appears from what I have read on various posts that at least some of the Lexar cards put a USB controller into their card (reference Lexar Customer Support page, http://www.lexar.com/support/troubleshooting.html#JumpShot%20Trouble%20Shooting%20for%20PC
I think the most interesting part of the link is:
“JumpShot Trouble Shooting for Macintosh:
Problem: When I install the supplied Jumpshot CD I insert the CompactFlash card and the LED does not light up. Why not?
Possible cause: The CompactFlash card being used is not a Lexar USB Enabled card.

Solution: Check the label on the CompactFlash card being used make sure the label reads “USB ENABLED” on the label. “

(This is listed under Macintosh, but has nothing to do with the computer operating system because its in the CF card).
Generally, the more electronics placed in a device the lower its absolute reliability will be. SanDisk never, as far as I know, have put the USB controller into the CF card. SanDisk always puts the USB controller into their card reader, where it is significantly less subject to environmental stresses, and where a failed USB controller cannot destroy photos.

If others have a different perspective that is fine, but I would be interested why they feel the way they do. I understand that my information and personal value equations may be different than others.

JimR

PS: Dave – I read your comments about “Go on, start flaming now…”
I hope you do not feel I am flaming you. I certainly have personally felt as I have been flamed on FM, and I think we all owe it to one another to treat one another with respect.
I also believe we all have the right and responsibility to “call one another on the carpet” if we do mistreat others. So if I have said anything here that makes you feel uncomfortable please let me know about it – thanks!



Jan 02, 2006 at 12:00 AM





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