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Archive 2005 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

Shivatron
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p.2 #1 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

HankB wrote:
I don't mean to be inflammitory. Having said that, I don't think you have to own Canon gear, as I do, to recognize that the 5D is in some ways a better camera than even the D2X, for a lot less money.

I am sure not taking it as inflammitory. Debate is good. I guess you must know something about the Canon 5D that I do not. I in know way see it as a better camera than the D2X, in fact as you state in some ways its better, I just dont see it. Can you explain?. The...Show more →

I agree, it truly is all in the way that you look at it. I think that the 5D is better than the D2X in some ways, since I can see the potential advantages of the narrower DoF of a larger sensor, the ability to use the full image circle of the lens, and the larger pixel sizes making for lower-noise at high ISO.

With the exception of lower noise (since everyone wants that), I can see how some people would consider the crop factor an advantage since it gives you longer lenses and more DoF. That's why I said better in some ways -- I agree with you that full-frame isn't a panacea for everyone.

Oct 11, 2005 at 01:17 PM

uccmmcpo
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p.2 #2 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

Osai wrote:
#1. Why are you assuming that Canon users are selling their high end models and buying the 5D?
#2. DH2 a Joke ? 4 MPs a Joke ? It takes more than MPs to make a good sensor.
#3. Do you really think all it takes to make a good picture is money?? "...............it`s utterly amazing what a mere $5 grand and a good zoom can do."
#4. Why are you so worried about what others buy? "5D priced at $3,295 simply has to be cutting into D2X sales." Do you really think that the 5D compares to a D2X?
#5. Your D70...Show more →

I should probably ignore your questions , some of what I feel are silly but I`ll give it a try anyway.
here goes:

1....Actually it was the 20D that did in fact cause many 1D MK ll owners to sell off and buy a 20D then pocket the difference cause they didn`t need all that the 1D offered.
2....4 MP`s isn`t up to present standards period! Most sensors are good but more MP`s in a dslr usually means more resolution and detail doesn`t it? Ever wonder why they put more in the D2X?
3...A bit more money does seem to buy more resolution and detail from Canon at least.They do offer it as an option last I knew.
Now, my original quote of how "it`s utterly amazing what a mere 5 grand and a good zoom will do" was taken by you from another post where I was being a bit facetious but there it was received as intended.
4...Who`s worried? Just don`t sit there thinking everyone looking for a 10+ MP dslr is ignoring the $1,700 price differential and that they need the pro features that the D2X has.
5...This one makes you suspect. I do like my D70 but I`ll still swap it for a 5D any day of the week.
6....Converts = evangelistic? Lets keep religion out of it.
7... Yeah , a good photographer can take good pictures no matter what kind of camera they use .Tell me, do you use a Holga?
8....Do I ever post images? Is this supposed to be a prerequisite?
John

Oct 11, 2005 at 01:55 PM

Qwntm
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p.2 #3 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

[uccmmcpo wrote:
#3...A bit more money does seem to buy more resolution and detail from Canon at least.They do offer it as an option last I knew.
Now, my original quote of how "it`s utterly amazing what a mere 5 grand and a good zoom will do" was taken by you from another post where I was being a bit facetious but there it was received as intended.
# 5...This one makes you suspect. I do like my D70 but I`ll still swap it for a 5D any day of the week.
John

#3 Seems to be a product of Canon's marketing machine which I am tired of dealing with. Only in Canon land do you have to pay over $1000 to a get a decent lens. Only in Canon land can you consider spending over $3300 for a consumer camera.

#5 The 5D was the last straw for me. It really opened my eyes. I was considering buying this camera and was so skeptical about it, I finally realized that what I really wasn't getting is the bang for my bucks from my $8,000 worth of Canon lenses. As this could only GET WORSE on a FF camera, I bought a D70s instead.

GUESS WHAT? Sharp photos are here again. Now I remember what I was missing... Funny how a D70s with a kit lens can out perform the 16-35L, and 24-70L. (I can't wait for my 24mm, 35mm,60mm and 85mm to show up. It's like going home... I shot Nikon film gear extensively in the 80's and 90's.)

I am so over the Canon Marketing BS...

But that's just me, you all have fun spending as much as you can afford...

Edward
www.edwardtmartins.com
www.pbase.com/qwntm

Eagerly awaiting Nikon's next AFFORDABLE pro camera: the D200.

Oct 11, 2005 at 02:48 PM

HankB
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p.2 #4 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

Shivatron, its always a pleasure to share ideas, and listen to other points of veiw as you have so appropriatly put them. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Oct 11, 2005 at 03:42 PM

Gregg Heckler
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p.2 #5 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

Hank B said it perfectly. It's all about features and benefits, or it should be. Canon is banking the whole farm on a full sized sensor while leaving the mostly used features out (5fps, verticl grip, solid feel, easier menus, comfort, etc). For 3 grand anyway. To get those you have to pay 7 grand. My D100 still continues to make awesome images and it still has a better feel, is more solid, easier menus, and is still worth over 1/2 of what I paid for it. At Canon's marketing rate the D5 will be old news in 9 months, and this discussion wioll start all over again.

Oct 11, 2005 at 05:45 PM

jasin
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p.2 #6 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

The 5D looks like a disposable!
Any sane photographer on a Nikon system would never go over to such a silly looking camera.
A camera is an extension of yourself and a 5D would NOT look cool hanging around my neck.
Cheers,
Jasin.

Oct 11, 2005 at 06:37 PM

spanishbayonet
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p.2 #7 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

I have a D2H, and can't wait for the price to drop so I can get a D2X. I love my H. There is a lot more to a quality camera the MP.
Christopher Dayan

Oct 11, 2005 at 06:48 PM

uccmmcpo
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p.2 #8 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

Qwntm wrote:
[

#3 Seems to be a product of Canon's marketing machine which I am tired of dealing with. Only in Canon land do you have to pay over $1000 to a get a decent lens. Only in Canon land can you consider spending over $3300 for a consumer camera.

#5 The 5D was the last straw for me. It really opened my eyes. I was considering buying this camera and was so skeptical about it, I finally realized that what I really wasn't getting is the bang for my bucks from my $8,000 worth of Canon lenses. As this could only GET...Show more →

Thank you so much Edward. I`ve just now learned so much from your extensive experience shooting Nikon film gear in the 80`s and 90`s.
Please let me recap what you wrote for the benefit of the forum readers.
1.... Canon`s marketing machine is strictly BS mainly cause you are tired of dealing with them?.( Can we say about Nikon`s marketing is better?)
2.....Until the D70s came out sharp images were not available with a dslr? (Tell this to the Canon shooters that probably outnumber us 4-1or more)
3......Canon L glass can`t compare to Nikons kit lens? (now thats a new one. Do you really think so?)
4......You bought $8,000 worth of Canon lenses and ended up being totally dissatisfied? This one I have to shake my head over. One would think your negative conclusions would have come long before you spent this kind of dough.

I see this thread has (like most other long threads) gone off in another direction and after a while much of the original intent / meaning gets misinterpreted and even lost and it`s becomes almost overwhelming to defend oneself .
Maybe I should apologise for inferring that Nikon has a sh&*load of tough competition and that a tweener model could very well set things right again, and the sooner the better for us and Nikon both.
John

Oct 11, 2005 at 07:00 PM

uccmmcpo
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p.2 #9 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

jasin wrote:
The 5D looks like a disposable!
Any sane photographer on a Nikon system would never go over to such a silly looking camera.
A camera is an extension of yourself and a 5D would NOT look cool hanging around my neck.
Cheers,
Jasin.

Thanks for a real intelligent response Jasin. Tell me, Is this typical of you?
John

Edited by uccmmcpo on Oct 12, 2005 at 01:05 PM GMT

Oct 11, 2005 at 07:04 PM

MPerdomo
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p.2 #10 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

The Canon 5D looks great, but if I shot Canon, I would shoot a 20D, or for the price, a 1DMkII.

The 20D delivers almost everything the 5D can, but at a price that you could buy 2x20D bodies and an "L" lens.

Oct 11, 2005 at 07:05 PM

uccmmcpo
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p.2 #11 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

spanishbayonet wrote:
I have a D2H, and can't wait for the price to drop so I can get a D2X. I love my H. There is a lot more to a quality camera the MP.
Christopher Dayan

Then why think about a D2X? Isn`t the D2H a pro level camera? Could it be the increase in MP`s actually make a difference?
Look above and see what you wrote. "There is a lot more to a quality camera the MP."
Hmmm, I have to wonder.
John

Oct 11, 2005 at 07:27 PM

Jack OBrien
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p.2 #12 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

uccmmcpo wrote:
............at least not till the D200 surfaces .https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/292973
It appears Canon 5D sales is slowing sales of their top end dslr s (series 1 models) forcing prices to fall significantly. This also happened when the 20D appeared.
I`d have to assume that those who sell off their high end model and drop to the next level overbought in the first place only to get to the next level, however it`s very often the only way to upgrade at the time and that`s exactly what we Nikon users are faced with presently. The choices are simple but limited. It`s the D50/70s...Show more →

John, I'm trying to figure out what your point is, or your concern. Is it that Canon high-end camera sales are off? Or that you don't have an upgrade path in Nikon? Or that Nikon is losing D2X sales to Canon 5D buyers? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, and I offer my comments with all due respect

I received the latest edition of Nikon World magazine the other day, and they were of course touting the new D50, as well as the D70s. The photo's are always top-notch IMO, but one thing kind of stood out to me. All of the photos in the magazine were taken with a variety of Nikons, from the 'joke' D2h to the D2X, and all the images were of superb quality, and this is what jumped out at me. You couldn't tell a D50 image from a D2X image. One of the articles was featuring child portraiture, and on page 18 there is a image on a double-page spread. It is of outstanding quality, and it was not taken with a D2X, but with a D100 or D2h (the photo credits said all images shown were either D100 or D2h). I have seen this quality over and over from the D100, D70, and D2h.

I guess my point is, or maybe my question to you, are you dissatisfied with the quality of your images, or, is your quandary not having a viable upgrade path? If it's the former, I don't know what to tell you, because if these images are good enough for a magazine, they're pretty good. If it's the latter, I would say that your current camera is good enough to carry you until the D100 replacement arrives.

Of course, you can counter with "you've got a D2X and what's your point", but I bought it for my own reasons and have no plan to downgrade in the future

Maybe Nikon does have bone-headed marketing, I wouldn't know, but they're selling the crap out of the D50 and D70s, so something is going right. I do know their engineering is top-notch though. Anyway, it's not a sin to consider the Canon 5D, and if that's a better fit for you, that's fine. I don't even know if that's part of your thought process, it doesn't matter. I'm sure you're wanting more MP's, who doesn't? I've just been kind of surprised lately at what's been coming out in magazines from the lowly 6MP cameras. They seem quite capable to me.

Kindest Regards,
(Sorry if I'm way off base here. Maybe I missed something

)

Jack

Oct 11, 2005 at 08:10 PM

Qwntm
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p.2 #13 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

uccmmcpo wrote:
Thank you so much Edward. I`ve just now learned so much from your extensive experience shooting Nikon film gear in the 80`s and 90`s.
Please let me recap what you wrote for the benefit of the forum readers.
1.... Canon`s marketing machine is strictly BS mainly cause you are tired of dealing with them?.( Can we say about Nikon`s marketing is better?)
2.....Until the D70s came out sharp images were not available with a dslr? (Tell this to the Canon shooters that probably outnumber us 4-1or more)
3......Canon L glass can`t compare to Nikons kit lens? (now thats a...Show more →

Most of your response is donkey twaddle and I won't respond to it.

But, yes the kit lens IS better than my 16-35L and 24-70L. So there!

As far as a new camera coming out and making things better, that's a CANON thing. Now that I am firmly in Nikon land I don't suffer from those delusions anymore...

And last time I clicked this was a NIKON forum, so what's up with the attitude if you're rooting for the other team and you're sitting in the wrong side of the stadium?

Cheers!

Edward
www.edwardtmartins.com

Oct 11, 2005 at 08:39 PM

sl1200mk4
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p.2 #14 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

I actually once said that the "D2H is garbage and Nikon should be ashamed" in a Taiwanese Camera forum and oh boy, that was a long flame war. I don't want to start one here, but would share some of my humble opinions.

Seriously, Nikon wanted to produce their own sensor, but couldn't get it right. Half of the resolution compared to the competitor, and even noiser. They failed in their business decision, they failed in their R&D and engineering.

The other aspects of the D2H are simply awesome. It is a solid camera, just like any other Nikon, however when it comes down to image sensors, Canon has the advantage. At least back then...

Of course my strong response back then was towards those who insists that 4MP is "all they needed". If so, stick with your 4MP D2H and don't buy a D2X or newer model to prove your point.

Honestly I really hate those people who believe that all he needs is exactly what others needs. It just doesn't work that way. Of course some typical response like "why don't you post some of your pics then..." are also some what meaningless. Given the right moment, one could take a million dollor picture with a disposable P&S.

Oct 11, 2005 at 10:22 PM

Qwntm
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p.2 #15 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

jacko wrote:
............Maybe Nikon does have bone-headed marketing, I wouldn't know, but they're selling the crap out of the D50 and D70s, so something is going right. I do know their engineering is top-notch though. Jack

And I am sure after the D200 anouncement, and when they become available those will be back-ordered for DECADES. (exageration...

)

Not because of anything that Canon does or doesn't have or do, but because the bedrock of any camera system is solid/competant lenses. Look at Leica, it certainly ain't about the camera bodies (sensors.) It's taken me a while to re-learn this while drinking the other companies kool aid...

Edward
www.edwardtmartins.com

Oct 11, 2005 at 11:20 PM

OzPic
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p.2 #16 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

If I wanted the sacred " full frame " I would rather spend that sort of money on an Ebony 4x5 ,also I chose Nikon not because it was better or worse than the Canon but because it felt good and comfortable to hold and that has to be a plus when using your camera because your tools have to feel comfortable to hold and control .
If I kept wanting and buying the latest and greatest camera every time one came onto the market I would never get used to using what I have worked so hard to get in the first place and as for the D1h and the D2h I have never used one but "correct me if I'm wrong" they were mainly for sport and photo journo's and as far as I know they perform very very well , so lets just be happy with what we have got and not concern ourselves with what we havn't got because you can have the best tools available but that does not mean you are going to produce the best images.
So lets just use our cameras and do what we all love doing and take good photographs.

Oct 12, 2005 at 07:01 AM

OzPic
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p.2 #17 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

jacko wrote:
John, I'm trying to figure out what your point is, or your concern. Is it that Canon high-end camera sales are off? Or that you don't have an upgrade path in Nikon? Or that Nikon is losing D2X sales to Canon 5D buyers? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, and I offer my comments with all due respect

I received the latest edition of Nikon World magazine the other day, and they were of course touting the new D50, as well as the D70s. The photo's are always top-notch IMO, but one thing kind of stood out to me....Show more →

Well said Jacko ,my wife owns a Pentax IST Ds and the images that camera can produce are nothing short of outstanding ,yes people " Pentax " Nikon and Canon are not the only companys making good cameras!!!

Oct 12, 2005 at 07:31 AM

Osai
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p.2 #18 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

OzPic wrote:
Well said Jacko ,my wife owns a Pentax IST Ds and the images that camera can produce are nothing short of outstanding ,yes people " Pentax " Nikon and Canon are not the only companys making good cameras!!!

I've heard somewhere on this forum that this camera uses a Nikon Sensor.

Oct 12, 2005 at 09:46 AM

Osai
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p.2 #19 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

uccmmcpo wrote:
I should probably ignore your questions , some of what I feel are silly but I`ll give it a try anyway.
here goes:

1....Actually it was the 20D that did in fact cause many 1D MK ll owners to sell off and buy a 20D then pocket the difference cause they didn`t need all that the 1D offered.
2....4 MP`s isn`t up to present standards period! Most sensors are good but more MP`s in a dslr usually means more resolution and detail doesn`t it? Ever wonder why they put more in the D2X?
3...A bit more money does seem to buy more...Show more →

# 1. Where did you get that statistic?
# 2. I'm always surprised when gearheads don't realize there is more to a sensor than MPs. I've just realized that there are "stat" heads.
# 3. My point here is....it takes more than money to take a good image. I've seen many bad pictures taken with very expensive equipment.
# 4. You seem to be the one stessing over this.
# 5. The 5D is about marketing. I'd never swap a Nikon for any "digichip".
# 6. I thought that's what evangelists did....."convert" people.
# 7. Actually I use a Holga only for fast action sports photgraphy!!

# 8. No its not a prerequisite at all. I was just wondering if you ever use a camera or just read articles.

Oct 12, 2005 at 10:02 AM

uccmmcpo
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p.2 #20 · This won`t happen to Nikon..........

sl1200mk4 wrote:
I actually once said that the "D2H is garbage and Nikon should be ashamed" in a Taiwanese Camera forum and oh boy, that was a long flame war. I don't want to start one here, but would share some of my humble opinions.

Seriously, Nikon wanted to produce their own sensor, but couldn't get it right. Half of the resolution compared to the competitor, and even noiser. They failed in their business decision, they failed in their R&D and engineering.

The other aspects of the D2H are simply awesome. It is a solid camera, just like any other Nikon, however when...Show more →

Finally a sensible reponse from someone who obviously isn`t a Nikon fanboy and sees some semblance of reality.
Nowhere in this thread can I recall knocking Nikon or writing that I wanted a 5D or writing that I was going to go back to Canon.
My joke reference to the D2H is simly in regards to it`s paltry 4 MP`s. In this day and age users are demanding more . Even Nikon figured that out ,enter the D2X.
Bottom line is all I want is something better than the D70 but not as costly as the D2X. Yes, Canon offers choices for Canon users. Nikon don`t. It`s that simple.
I think Nikon is sandbagging and unquestionably getting all the mileage they can out of the D50/70s and the D2X.
In the end it`s gonna bite them in the a$$. True, they sold boatloads of the D70 to hoards of new dslr user` s all the while hemoraging losses of their former user base to Canon . It might well catch up to them down the road..
Canon just keeps increasing their lead and choices and their sensors presently produce the best high ISO`s in the game. Thats the reality whether we Nikon users want to admit it or live in denial.
Again , all I want is what the D200 is rumored to offer , yet priced well below the D2X..
John

Oct 12, 2005 at 10:44 AM

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